New Consultation to ban all swords

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Big Lazy
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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by Big Lazy » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:17 pm

Moon wrote:Bullsh*tters in all walks of life inevitably trip themselves up by using the wrong terminology or making claims that can be refuted by those who have knowledge and experience and then get aggressive when they're exposed for what they really are.
Yup thats the Government for sure sir :mrgreen:

simonatack
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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by simonatack » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:55 pm

What is it with you guys, who practice a sword martial art, find so much disgust for what you term 'The casual Sword Collector'. To be gotten rid of like they were a cancer in your midst? Isn't the ban enough for you? Or have you all done so much bleating on about unfairness and injustice from the government, you actually want to start a banning campaign of your own now? I asked about how one becomes a member of a club to find out what restrictions there would be and how one may purchase a sword that is at the center of this controversy, to practice his art. Then, in the midst of decent answers, threads describing collectors as numpties comes out of the woodwork. If elitism was universal, the sheer sums of money I've spent on genuine, antique originals would, to some idiots, give me licence to look down on some of YOU lot, having to scrimp and save all year for a sword I and my friends could buy with the change from our purchases at the salerooms. But I don't think of my fellow enthusiasts in such disgusting terms. I have petitioned and lobbied hard and long for EVERYONE, regardless of their particular interest to have the right to enjoy it. What a grave pity some of you have no similar regard. No wonder this ban was a piece of wee wee to inflict, with such derisive division in our ranks. But hey, what do I know? I'm just a numpty collector...Doh!

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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by skippydm » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:07 pm

I suggest you read back a little, then you will understand what was said ;)

No one has a problem with "casual collectors", I myself as well as others fall into that category - not many can afford a £5k nihonto sword, what pisses everyone off is when you get an idiot wanting to cut down tree's with a sword or someone who trips themselves up in their own lies.

I believe Nexys numpy (should be numpty) comment was aimed at another member who was pretty rude telling moon to shut up, etc ;)

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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by Iron Donkey » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:40 pm

Yeah no one called casual collectors Numpty's. The Numpty comment was aimed at people that are in fact casual collectors, but who are claiming they are martial artists.

Everyone on this forum is 100% behind casual collectors, and everyone 100% agrees that the innocent casual collector should be allowed to collect casually. You might want to put the pin back in the hand grenade......

In my experience sword collectors are often more knowledgable about blades than martial artists, which would perhaps be expected. :)

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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by cybernex » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:42 pm

Exactly Iron Donkey, The way most of us were putting it is that we're getting sick of these Casual Collectors who think they are Martial Artists or are trying to become Martial Artisats which are realy doomed to failer from day one, because the only reason they want to do a Martial Art is to become exempt from the ban and carry on collecting, WHICH IS SO WRONG!!!!

You should only do a martial art if you want to do it, your willing to do it and would train hard at it, not for that martial art's perks I.E. BKA membership and exemption from the ban.
Last edited by cybernex on Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by simonatack » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:07 pm

Of course its wrong Cybernex. No one should come wasting time and resources in a disciplined and exacting sport, if they are not prepared to put forth the effort to practice and perfect. I see it all the time as a shooting instructor with a local gun club. Every wannabe sniper who couldn't hit a barn door comes my way. But I don't dismiss him or her out of hand as a numpty or something to be despised and gotten rid of, just because they had a previous existance as a casual airsofter. I was a junior fencer at my school and continued fencing to competiton level during my military service, and from that got into collecting, sort of a backwards way round thing. I was always taught to believe in a universal fellowship among swordsmen and is a virtue I will defend to my death, in this poxy era of selfishness and "stuff-you-I'm-alright attitudes. Makes me sad to hear swordsmen today start sounding like self-appointed judges as to who comes in and who is out. If someone joins up at your Dojo with a view to satiating a casual collecting instinct, believe me, the call to put in the effort to practice will get him out of the door faster than a boot up the arse from you, or your sensei. Every weapon-oriented sport or interest has a bloody village idiot telling you he's mustard at it-until he has to shoot a few rounds or draw his sword before those who genuinely know what skill at arms really is. That's people for you. ;)

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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by Moon » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:45 pm

@ Nobody in particular.
No one has suggested that there's anything wrong with 'casual sword collecting',the issues raised in this thread regarding Martial Artists allegedly 'looking down' on others have been done to death over the years and I along with others who are not practising MAs and those who are,realise that today's 'casual' collector is possibly tomorrow's serious collector or perhaps will become a student,who's on a temporary budget for one reason or another...It's been my experience in the relatively short time that I've been a member,that dedicated MAs are very tolerent and do not patronise newcomers but try to educate them where possible...it's mainly the MA? who has had very little formal training or someone who has a training DVD or a book or two and is a member of an elitist forum who thinks he/she has the right to discriminate between themselves and others...which they DON'T,not here or anywhere else.
Just take a look at some forums based in the USA where the everyday answer to a novice's question is 'Ask your sensei' and if he/she replies that they don't have one,the usual response is 'You shouldn't own a sword then'...these are the prudes who will discourage young people from taking up any form of sword related art but they'll still buy a sword and probably do everything wrong and eventually seriously damage an expensive blade,themselves or worse still,someone else.
On a brighter note...Gunto pieces are exempt or should be because they were made in Japan prior to 1954 and some don't cost as much as high end Chen and other swords did either,plus you've got a little bit of history too. ;)

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skippydm
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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by skippydm » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:58 pm

Moon wrote:it's mainly the MA? who has had very little formal training or someone who has a training DVD or a book or two and is a member of an elitist forum who thinks he/she has the right to discriminate between themselves and others...which they DON'T,not here or anywhere else.
I believe the quote your looking for is,

Knowledge is like Jam the less you got the more you spread it

:>

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Moon
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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by Moon » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:20 pm

skippydm wrote:I believe the quote your looking for is,

Knowledge is like Jam the less you got the more you spread it

:>
That's one way of putting it skip'. :D
I prefer the old Japanese proverb...
Knowledge without wisdom is as books carried on the back of an ass.
;)

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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by quench » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:49 pm

"Knowledge is like Jam the less you got the more you spread it" is this one you made up? you're right about me with respect to iai.I should know better. I've been learning cantonese for over 2 years, so hopefully this quality I can put toward iaido. this is the human condition, we try and spread our knowledge. I don't show off with my cantonese.

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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by Big Lazy » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:01 am

Shame really, you'd be most useful at my local takeaway cos they cant speak a word of the Queens lol :mrgreen:

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Moon
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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by Moon » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:56 am

quench wrote: I've been learning cantonese for over 2 years, so hopefully this quality I can put toward iaido. this is the human condition, we try and spread our knowledge.
Ermmm...am I missing something here...what's the connection in learning Cantonese and a Japanese Sword Art? :S
quench wrote: I don't show off with my cantonese.
Do you get many opportunities? :D

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skippydm
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Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by skippydm » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:19 am

quench wrote:"Knowledge is like Jam the less you got the more you spread it" is this one you made up?
No Infact its from french
"La culture c'est comme la confiture, moins on en a et plus on l'étale" which is roughly: "Knowledge is like jam, the less you have the more you spread it".
quench wrote: you're right about me with respect to iai.I should know better. I've been learning cantonese for over 2 years, so hopefully this quality I can put toward iaido. this is the human condition, we try and spread our knowledge. I don't show off with my cantonese.
Cantonese aint going to help you one bit with a Japanese art. the last part we try and spread our knowledge, yeah we do share knowledge freely - but when people are talking crap its only fair to correct them so that they do not make the same mistakes again.

kirisute

Re: New Consultation to ban all swords

Post by kirisute » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:00 am

i think being a practicing martial artist/re-enactor opens ones eyes to several inconsistancies when it comes to bans and suchlike...and i think some martial artists can be far more biased and pompous and self obsessed than ever a casual collector will be.
my idea of a "good" martial artist is somebody who will share their knowledge and skills in such a way as to enlighten people....in the same way a knowledable collector should be willing to share their knowledge for the betterment of those that truly wish to learn.
the problem arises when you enocunter people that have no concept of the "DUTY" of a pupil/student..and it is a duty...respecting those with greater knowledge who are willing to share is a humbling experience...and in this day and age there are blessed few people willing to be humble.
Equally a person with knowledge who will not share their experience is wasted....their accumulation of knowledge will go to the grave with them and sadly leave the world. a great waste.....in both cases.

which brings me around to the bans...as with so many things...those with knowledge and skill and those with a yearning for the beauty of objects (in this case swords) will always be the under-dogs compared to what those in power see as people outside of society...ie crinimal element.
in western society it is almost possible to see the mirror of the fall of the samurai in Japan....the loss of the ability to wear a sword...instead here we see the loss of right to collect/purchase a sword....because our government see no valid use for them in todays society. And if you can justify the use then you will need to "jump hoops" to continue that usage.
Sadly, as with hand guns..neither the new ban..or the proposed one will have any effect on violent crime. A criminal will ALWAYS find a way to perform their crime. That is FACT! and even then..it is rare that someone is attacked with a sword in a pre-meditated cold calculated manner. the swords in question are just what is to hand....it could be an axe..a knife..a screw driver.
maybe we need to reverse things..maybe the government should allow martial artists to carry swords....then martial artists could protect society! LOL

of course all this talk is good....it is good to make ourselves heard and known about. sadly as so many have said..it will have little to no effect.....this government, the next, the previous...it matters not who is in power in this country....we are still fooled into believing we have a say in what they do....sadly this is not the case....they will do as they please.

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An apology

Post by simonatack » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:50 pm

Gentlemen I must render a sincere apology to you all. I appear to have gotten the wrong end of the stick with regard to your various threads. :oops: I am very humbled, particularly in the light of Kirisute's post above, which says so much, more eloquently than I. I saw the words in the various threads and thought "that's not fair". Swords of all origines and types are my absolute passion, and swordsmen, be you collector or practitioner, are my favourite type of people (as well as shooters). Its not about money or status for me, its about passion; for craftsmanship, for art and beauty, for history. Swordsmithing and Gunsmithing are an equal wonder of enginuity, both imbued with skill and craft in their making and in their disciplines of purpose. I have some fine modern replicas and custom made copies of swords, alongside originals that are hundreds of years old. Why? Because I love them all; the knowlege that goes with them is something I will never be able to fully learn. History always throws up an unexpected curve and thats part of the adventure; one I have never tired from learning from wiser minds than mine, or sharing the little bit I do know, whenever asked. Now, thanks to government policy and the ignorance of the public at large, swords and swordskills are to join shooting skills as something to be viewed with fear,as something with a tainted air of criminal illegality about it. That disgusts me to the core with its unfairness, its sheer bloody ignorance of facts and the way it taints anyone who openly expresses an active interest. So it seems my defensive nature has gotten the better of me, in my response to some phrases and words used by some of you in your opinions. I'm very sorry to have caused any offence to anyone here. Simon W. Atack. PS. That is very good news regarding pre-1954 Gunto. Thank you for that Moon.

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