Martial Arts

A forum for discussion on all things related to the martial-arts and oriental sword-arts

Moderators: Big Lazy, Moderators

User avatar
Lexxorcist
Posts: 1173
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Postby Lexxorcist » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:34 pm

Hatamoto wrote:Call me odd, but I'd go for that pitch :p It just sounds too f*cking stupid NOT to try, yknow what I mean? lol.


Ok, you're odd! lol :>

Well never having tried it I guess I shouldn't knock it, I mean shaolins revolve on big spears and spend hours in horse stances balanced on tree trunks with bamboo poles pointing up their bums, and I wouldn't do that, but they seem competent enough fighters sooo...
Image

User avatar
Hatamoto
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:04 pm
Location: Abercynon, South Wales
Contact:

Postby Hatamoto » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:37 pm

I was watching a shaolin performance earlier on, and I couldn't help to think, they're not acting TOO much like monks, are they? :p

Don't get me wrong, though - I'd love it if normal christian monks got in on the action! But doing all these shows, and stuff, it seems kinda showing off, after a while... every show's more or less the same, and most of it's been done by now.. Anyone else kinda bored of the whole "held up by spears" and "bending spear with throat" sort of stuff now?
Wraith wrote:my tits are fantastic, you little bastard!

User avatar
Lexxorcist
Posts: 1173
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Postby Lexxorcist » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:45 pm

On torrent sites there's an old lazer disk rip of shaolins training in the temple. It's much better than the show things they do now. They're just filmed doing their day to day training, and although a lot of the 'stunts' they get up to are similar to what they now do in their shows, there's much less regard for safety and you get a great insight into their training regime. They never stop! They eat their noodles in horse stances and do weird things like sleeping hanging from the rafters. :S
Image

User avatar
Hatamoto
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:04 pm
Location: Abercynon, South Wales
Contact:

Postby Hatamoto » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:32 pm

Also doing one fingered pressups, with some nice footage of Jet Li as a kid? Yeah, downloaded that one last week lol, still got it on the compy. The chopping through brick was kinda cool, but it still hurts me to watch them kick each other in the googs.
Wraith wrote:my tits are fantastic, you little bastard!

User avatar
Lexxorcist
Posts: 1173
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Postby Lexxorcist » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:15 am

I liked the way they seem to use everyday activities as part of their training. I try to do that myself, make a boring chore into an effecive exorcise to imporve my karate. It might sound a bit karate kid, but although that was made as a teen karate movie, some of the prinicples are sound. People slate that movie because you coulldn't train a novice to win a competition like that in shuch a short time, but you have to allow for it being a teen karate flick, not a training dvd. Big shout out to mr myagi. :???:

The sparring they do on those really high pole things would take some skill, one slip and you'd drop from a great enough heght to do some damage to yourself. The end result of their training is incredibly tough, fast and highly competent fighters. Or.. so i would imagine. Never having seen real shaolins in real fights i only have their history to go on. I did see one fighter in the ufc who's style was 'shaolin kung fu' and he lost, but I guess that's like ninjitsu again, I doubt he actually spent his life training in the temple.

As for things like bending rods on their throats, i find those type of things a bit gimmicky, and i'm not wholey convinced it'd make them impervious to a good punch to the throat. Althogh my martial art of choice is japanese, i do love the shaolin and i don't have that jap/chinese rivalry thing going on.
Image

User avatar
Hatamoto
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:04 pm
Location: Abercynon, South Wales
Contact:

Postby Hatamoto » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:53 am

Best example of mundane activities used for training I've seen is Yuen Biao in Dreadnought (I think is the name), which was ripped off in Batman and Robing. Guy's drying clothes by wrapping stuff round his fingers, and pulling, puts things on the line with his feet, gripping the garments with his toes, and stuff.. Really amazing scene :)
Wraith wrote:my tits are fantastic, you little bastard!

User avatar
Lexxorcist
Posts: 1173
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Postby Lexxorcist » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:59 am

Yes, that's just the kind of thing i mean. Did you notice the scene in the shaolin vid where the guys hanging upside down and has to fill a bowl above him with water from an urn below him with a tiny container - then do it in reverse? That looked seriously painful. Also the cook who chopped the veg with a big machette type thing against his legs and stomach? I'm not sure how hygenic that is lol, but it's all part of living and breathing it.
Image

User avatar
Hatamoto
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:04 pm
Location: Abercynon, South Wales
Contact:

Postby Hatamoto » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:26 am

Doesn't matter how hygeinic it is, the slices were rolling down his thigh onto the floor anyway :p lol, out of the lot that he cut, only something like four pieces went into the bowl :p No wonder they don't eat much 8)

For the hanging upside down, it makes me wonder - none of them really look fit. I mean, they work every muscle to sheer pisstake capacity, yet they don't have ripped six packs, or bulging thighs, and stuff.. I think it's because each exercise is done sort of "in context", through thousands of repetitions a day, rather than isolated exercises. I find that amazing, though... these people are nigh invincible, in terms of impact resistance, and speed, and durability, flexibility, etc, but if you saw them in the street in just jeans and a t shirt, or something, they'd look just... well, easy targets, or something, coz of the lack of muscle definition and the relaxed, almost dazed, I guess, look in their face.

It's just odd to think tha ttheir skills don't look like they belong to the body lol
Wraith wrote:my tits are fantastic, you little bastard!

User avatar
darksun_uk
Mod
Posts: 2034
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:07 pm
Location: sunny manchester
Contact:

Postby darksun_uk » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:52 am

darksun_uk wrote:i am set against anyone saying that allowing yourself to be hit is a valid tool....


now lets weigh that against the evidence i was basing it on shall we and the responses from the author.

darkphoton1 wrote:or what i do is when someone goes to hit me, i go really close and tense my abdomen


thus allowing someone to hit you so you can perform your "inside the event horison of a black hole" universal law defying wrist manipulation techninqe.



darkphoton1 wrote:not allowing youself to get hit, but learning how to get hit properly by controling your muscles.


nope, you said "i go really close" to allow yourself to be hit, thus allowing yourself to be hit and "getting hit properly" are the same thing in this context ,all i and others are saying is that this kind of thing apart from anything that you may think will flow from it that may be great (breaking wrists etc) IS fundamentally flawed from any resonable view of what consitutes good self defense technique as there is no such thing as allowing yourself to be hit, rolling with a punch is fine but opening up for one (as opposed to simply faking an opening) is ultimately suicidal (outside a dojo enviroment), THEN factor in knives and drugged/drunk crazy street people and the idea gets really really dangerous, see my/our point now ?


i hope you are also aware that a hit in the lower abdomen can rupture the bladder something that is not only incredibly painfull and debilitating but also potentially life threatening and likley to result in major surgery and possible a life long disabilty.(imho,afaik)

also the bundle of blood vessels behind the belly button area if hit with enough force can rupture and cause perotinitus (often fatal) which is one of the most painfull ways to die.(seriously)(imho,afaik)





kind regards
Image

User avatar
Banzai Joe
Posts: 2267
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:30 am
Location: Nottingham, UK
Contact:

Postby Banzai Joe » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:48 am

How in the blue hell did i miss all of this?

DarkPhoton...with respect......lighten up, wisen up, grow up.

You're still relatively new to these boards and considering some of the experience and knowledge of some of the folk on these boards your arrogance is held in contempt.

If i was to rant on like you in this board i'd be cautious of what people like wtf? post, seeing as imho he's probably the most knowledgeable on this particular subject. Even though he's an uggh uggh doorman and far younger than me, he could argue that black is white, but he still knows his stuff. Darksun uses big words 8) but there's hardly another user on this forum that has his depth of understanding in these matters.

I've personally studied MA's for over 20 years and, street combat, soft and hard MA's etc blah blah. So have many others.
This forum is not overpopulated by youngsters with movie style imaginations. So you're out on a limb mate.
Or......maybe your english isn't just what it should be and we're misreading your points.
Making dumb statements and not fully explaining yourself is bound to attract a few flames.

Advancing to take a punch is nuts, unless your timing is absolutely split-second spot on.
I've personally completed a full kickboxing class with a broken wrist (unbeknown to me at the time), adrenalin etc. Breaking the wrist of someone who is willing to fight will just fuel their rage.

Dude, you have think about how you explain yourself. I don't doubt that you have something to offer this topic. Don't take anything personally, just contribute in a more logical less fantasy-filled way. :D

One more point, what you've said so far, is in my experience, typical of karate trained people. They somehow think that their art transcends all. I'm not saying you think that, but its funny how your opinions mirror loads of karateka that i know.
Just an observation.
"A man should never have sexual intercourse with another man. God hates that!" Leviticus 18.

darkphoton1
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:14 pm

Postby darkphoton1 » Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:29 am

ok just so you guys know

getting "really close" is not the same as getting "hit"

if you cannto lock your wrist ,elbow, and/or sholder your punch is nto goign to be the same.

you guys are under the impression that im standign here and the guy hits me. NO! move in, and tense and the LAST MOMENT. they will absorb the reaction force. ever hit a wall and said "hey.... that kinda hurts"

see thats the REACTION force. newton states this in his laws. the wall does not move that much, and therefore it applies an equal and opposite force back at you.

and i do not suggest fighting someone liek this, but perhaps it may coem in use one day if you actually DO get hit.


maybe i just am not explainign it properly, or maybe some of you are "dee dee dee" (for those of us whove watched mend of mencia you will know.)

and so in conclusion i have discoverd in these forums peopel do not shut the f.... up, as i have stated many times that this coversation grows superflous, yet people still go on.


p.s.


Banzai Joe wrote:I've personally studied MA's for over 20 years






Banzai Joe wrote: i've personally completed a full kickboxing class with a broken wrist


Co-incidence?.... or cause and effect?

User avatar
wtf?
Posts: 1586
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:31 am

Postby wtf? » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:51 am

i gotta say im really confused. so lets forget that, and move to the next logcal step. and i wouldnt mind doing this for reasons stated by DS, myself, and others... safty.... or at least, as safe as possible combat training.

if im reading right, you move forward to stop power generating in a strike. you tense to limit damage. now... for that to work, or be valid, it would have to be perfect....

lets assume it is. whats next?

the reason i ask this is because i know karate to be a mainly standing art. so once your oponent is moving forwards, and your closing in no him... your basicly standing nose, to nose... you'd HAVE too.

so back to my earlier question... what groundwork/grappling do you do?

the answer would be helpfull because your talking about combat, and street work. so if you understand the need for grappling, we can at least take solace in the fact that your looking at all the angles, and arnt just the 'typical karate student' Joe was on about, and we may get a better understanding of what your talking about.

so maybe you could talk about the next step, when your nose to nose, and yourboth moving forward.... you WOULD end up in a standing, or floor grapple. what would be your course of action? where does your art cater to such things?

(also... broken wrists arnt that much. ive dealt with coke heads that would probally keep fighting if i lopped off a limb, or 3.... thats to say nothing of normal guys with alcohol, and adrenalin in their system. this is where experience over-rules logic/knowlege. and you might find this info usefull next time your told, or led to believe that a broken limb will dissable an attacker)
Image
God i LOVE these things.

Image

Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

User avatar
sprout
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:37 pm
Contact:

Postby sprout » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:52 am

f you cannto lock your wrist ,elbow, and/or sholder your punch is nto goign to be the same


You should never lock or hyperextend the arm when executing a punch.

as for "cause and effect" are you implying that he broke his wrist becuase of poor technique? Your meanings once again are a little fuzzy.

(also... broken wrists arnt that much. ive dealt with coke heads that would probally keep fighting if i lopped off a limb, or 3.... thats to say nothing of normal guys with alcohol, and adrenalin in their system. this is where experience over-rules logic/knowlege. and you might find this info usefull next time your told, or led to believe that a broken limb will dissable an attacker)


aye, thats why on the doors pain compliance is no longer used to control people.
Image
wtf? wrote:like looking for mensa candidates in a jerry springer trailor park

don't click this link...

User avatar
Banzai Joe
Posts: 2267
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:30 am
Location: Nottingham, UK
Contact:

Postby Banzai Joe » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:01 pm

darkphoton1 wrote:
Banzai Joe wrote:I've personally studied MA's for over 20 years



err.....you didn't retort to this bit 8) what was your point?


Banzai Joe wrote: i've personally completed a full kickboxing class with a broken wrist


Co-incidence?.... or cause and effect?


Hardly, lol, it was my own damn fault, but either way, point is, it didn't bother me enough to stop. I was hot and hyped up, and thats easily enough to NOT stop a fighter when he has hurt/broken his wrist.

I think that your views are valid mate, but i don't think so far, you've managed too well in getting them across, but don't let it put you off. If we do understand you and still disagree, well then fair enough, thats what makes us all unique.

This deabte will go/rage on because thats what it is, a debate. Who's to say when it should stop? If you want it to stop, don't contribute any further, simple as. I don't think its got too out of line to lock it....

Back to your point, i do understand your bit about the reaction force, but just cos a brainiac once said it, doesn't make it so. It will surely depend on a great deal of variables. And i certainly wouldn't advise training specifically for it or relying on it in a fight. I'm confident in being fast enough to evade a straight attack most of the time, but if one catches me then i hope that my experience has allowed me to 'roll' with it, or take it full on and remain composed. (if that is indeed what you meant).
If its you that moves in and expects your opponent to kind of bounce off you a la 'reaction force' then what if he's similarly prepared/trained? Then you've just entered his space where he could deliver a nasty blow. if his split-second timing is good then once you've struck, you will inevitably relax slightly and he could batter you in that second. (if he knows what he's doing).
Don't apply too much science to it. Instinct i think is key here. Figure your oppoent out and judge your attack/defence accordingly.
"A man should never have sexual intercourse with another man. God hates that!" Leviticus 18.

darkphoton1
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:14 pm

Postby darkphoton1 » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:02 pm

wtf? wrote:i gotta say im really confused. so lets forget that, and move to the next logcal step. and i wouldnt mind doing this for reasons stated by DS, myself, and others... safty.... or at least, as safe as possible combat training.

if im reading right, you move forward to stop power generating in a strike. you tense to limit damage. now... for that to work, or be valid, it would have to be perfect....

lets assume it is. whats next?

the reason i ask this is because i know karate to be a mainly standing art. so once your oponent is moving forwards, and your closing in no him... your basicly standing nose, to nose... you'd HAVE too.

so back to my earlier question... what groundwork/grappling do you do?

the answer would be helpfull because your talking about combat, and street work. so if you understand the need for grappling, we can at least take solace in the fact that your looking at all the angles, and arnt just the 'typical karate student' Joe was on about, and we may get a better understanding of what your talking about.

so maybe you could talk about the next step, when your nose to nose, and yourboth moving forward.... you WOULD end up in a standing, or floor grapple. what would be your course of action? where does your art cater to such things?

(also... broken wrists arnt that much. ive dealt with coke heads that would probally keep fighting if i lopped off a limb, or 3.... thats to say nothing of normal guys with alcohol, and adrenalin in their system. this is where experience over-rules logic/knowlege. and you might find this info usefull next time your told, or led to believe that a broken limb will dissable an attacker)


first of, karate is absolutly NOT a standing art, peopel who stand in karate get sweeped quickly, as are people who dance around like soemthing out of hollywood.


as for what is done when your that close, there are 1000s of techniques and i have experimented and improvised with 100s

i find i am best suited for wrist,finder and elbow locks, so i tend to get them into one of these and pull them down. this exposes thier neck and shoulder area. then i hit some pressure points with a technique we call in shotokan "raindrop" or some people refere to it as "teardrop"

but thats for me, one of my friends cant work the arms that well, but can work well on the leg area, and tends to go for sweeps.


i also understand not every opponent will be stopped by a broken wrist, but a broken frist, fingers and elbow will deffinitly effect your performance even if not by pain.


but again i will point out that these techniques work well for me, but not everyone else. i think that we should not assume im some nutjob who thinks that im a tank on legs and that i let people hit me when i fight them. my methods may seem strang but lets try to think .... "is there the slightest chance that MAY actually work?"

let us go further into the matter but let us not offend each other and undermine each others values.


Return to “Fudoshin Dojo”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest