split from - Most effective martial arts in a Street fight

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Logan

split from - Most effective martial arts in a Street fight

Postby Logan » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:11 pm

I can't understand people who get into fights.

I'm 24 and to my knowledge and as far back as I can recollect, I have NEVER been engaged in what I would consider a proper fight (fist).

I never put myself in any sort of position that would incite a fight, yet others seem to put themselves in that position daily - knowing of unknowing. Why? Unknowingly I guess they just have little common sense, y'know, the little voice that says "don't go there, you do and you're in for a potential world o' hurt" - they seem to lack it.

Gem's brother used to get into fights quite a bit, mainly due to hanging around with the wrong type of people. Why hang around with them at all if that's what it eventually leads to?

If you're getting mugged, then that's a completely different story. Though if I were in that situation, I'd assess it quickly and make a decision. But I guarantee 99.9% of the time I'd give in to the attackers demands. Why? Because I don't know if he has a gun or a knife hidden away. Even if I knew some form of martial art or self defense, I'd still do the same. If I did know an art, I'd be foolish to potentially risk my life by thinking just because I know a martial art, that I'm some elite ninja that'll take him out easy. This is real life, its not the movies. You can claim you know this martial art and that martial art till your blue in the face, but if that attacker has a knife or a gun, its a split-second action from him and you're lying in the gutter with a knife wound or a bullet in your gut.

Why risk your life?

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Postby grimm » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:29 pm

in my case, i'd say that i get into situations where people want to fight with me for 3 reasons:

1) my small size
2) i wear expensive clothes/dress well. (the scallies hate me)
3) as i said in an earlier post, i used to walk around confidently (perhaps overly so?, again, it seems to infuriate scallies) which possibly drew attention to me (people thought i was being cocky?).

also 90% of the time people have wanted to fight me it has been your stereotypical reebok classic/rockport wearing scally (you know the type that wears horizontal stripes). you could blame me for going into areas where they dwell, but it's really unavoidable, especially where i live. there's a tendency to build council estates everywhere now and this seems especially true in manchester. i went to university in leeds and didn't get into any fights the whole 3 years i spent there incidentally (coincidence?). in leeds in general though i didn't see a lot of scallies and they didn't seem to form particularly large groups either (which they do in manchester).

i'v only been in one situation which you could describe as being a "bar brawl", but that was down to (again) a group of scallies saying that one of my friends was "iraqi scum" or something like that, i forget exactly what was said (he is in fact greek/cypriot), then they waited for us outside and proceeded to try to kick the sh*t out of us.

edit: just to point out, i'v very rarely actually hit anyone in any of these types of situation. if there is any opportunity to step out of a fight i gladly take it, and i certainly don't go looking for fights. i also rarely drink, i think only one of the times i'v been in a situation like this i was drunk (the time that they waited outside a bar for us). the time where someone was waving a knife around i just tried to maintain a decent distance between myself and them so that it wouldn't be a threat, at that point though i was focused on the knife and someone managed to walk behind me and hit me around the back of the head (might've used an implement, i remember it was either a very hard punch or something heavy). at that point i didn't go down or show any sign of weakness and they seemed to lose interest after that and i was able to just walk away.
Last edited by grimm on Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Banzai Joe » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:37 pm

Perfectly reasonable point Logan. I'm 35, been studying martial arts since i was 14, am fairly confident i could defend myself, those around me, and maybe even from more than one attacker.
This isn't ego saying this, its just confidence, more so in my attitude than my physical prowess. I'm pretty fit, my reaction are very good, but my mind (until i reach Moonshadows age and start hitting senility :razz:) is pretty sharp and i can usually read a situation quickly should it arise. This i suppose gives me an edge to either act 1st or react 2nd.
I've been drunk plenty of times, wandered into 'wrong parts of town' plenty, and have only ever been in ONE fight in town. (btw....its another funny story which i shall post one day, i'm quite proud of this one :) )

BUT, having said that, sometimes pride aint always a bad thing, and i'll be damned if i'll turn the other cheek every single time someone confronts or threatens me or those close to me.
In 35 years, i've had good times and bad times. I've worked hard and played hard, i've struggled and survived and am a far better person for it. I will not let someone unman my dignity by thinking he/she can get away with treating me or those close to me like sh*t.
You poke a stick at a dog, expect to be bitten!
Realistically? If someone pointed a gun at me, there's very little i could do, but hope he doesn't pull the trigger. If he had a knife and was confronting me, then he'd better know how to use it, and make sure if he sticks me that i go down and stay down......

Just the other side of my 2 pence piece. :)
"A man should never have sexual intercourse with another man. God hates that!" Leviticus 18.

Logan

Postby Logan » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:40 pm

I understand what you're saying, but if you're confidence leads you to attack said mugger, who then pulls out a gun and shoots you or pulls out a knife and lunges out you, you're screwed, thanks to your confidence.

Retreat is the better part of valor.

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Postby Banzai Joe » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:02 pm

Logan wrote:I understand what you're saying, but if you're confidence leads you to attack said mugger, who then pulls out a gun and shoots you or pulls out a knife and lunges out you, you're screwed, thanks to your confidence.

Retreat is the better part of valor.


Well, i never truly said i'd attack, i said i'd either act 1st, or react 2nd.
There's a difference between confidence and arrogance, i'd like to think i have the former.I'd never attack unless i'd read and understood the situation perfectly and was aware of my surroundings.

As for retreat being the better part of valour, i don't totally agree.
Lol, it may sound corny, but there are times when a man just has to stand up to evil. If you think every mugger has a knife or gun, then you run away all your life. The main reason i've only ever been in one fight is because i've talked my way out of every other situation, or diffused it before it escalates, or if its been drunken friends ready to brawl, i just walk away or drag them away. I'm simply not interested in it. There are plenty of reasons why i've studied martial arts most of my life, one is to protect what is dearest to me, and if i judge correctly that an assailant(s) has no weapon other than his body then i will stand my ground.
To err on the side of caution is fine m8, but to program yourself to flee every time? You may end up being scared of your own shadow, and that aint the way i'd like to live my life.

Some of my attitude on this will have been formed from serving in the marines as a front line elite soldier, and can understand most people not buying into it.
Without trying to sound condescending to anyone, but maybe without some kind of military or combat arts training, people 'may' not possess that characteristic that enables them to put themselves at risk to protect what is theirs.
"A man should never have sexual intercourse with another man. God hates that!" Leviticus 18.

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Postby grimm » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:22 pm

Banzai Joe wrote:people 'may' not possess that characteristic that enables them to put themselves at risk to protect what is theirs.


i think if there truly was a situation where it was "fight or you or a loved one will die" then everyone would step up to the challenge. however that situation will most likely never arise for 99.9% of people.

i think if you're suggesting that you'd put yourself at risk, however small, to protect for example a wallet in order to preserve your dignity, then you're a pretty stupid person.

for example, if someone was threatening my girlfriend i'd just put myself in between her and the attacker, and allow them to decide what happens next.

as for the part i quoted. in 99.9% of situations that characteristic might be a bad one to posess if it's combined with any sort of irrational thinking or lack of self control. dignity isn't something that someone can take away from you unless you let them (it's all in the mind). there's no need to re-affirm dignity by use of physical violence, that makes you no better than the attacker who tries to beat someone up in order to impress others.

Logan

Postby Logan » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:51 pm

Banzai Joe wrote:There's a difference between confidence and arrogance, i'd like to think i have the former.I'd never attack unless i'd read and understood the situation perfectly and was aware of my surroundings.


Problem is, arrogance will "sometimes" follow confidence. I'm not saying that you would be the arrogant type, but that is fact, that if you're confident in something, unless you don't let it, it will turn to arrogance.

Banzai Joe wrote:As for retreat being the better part of valour, i don't totally agree.


As a former soldier I thought you would understand! History is full of examples of succesfull retreats being praised as bravery.

Banzai Joe wrote:Lol, it may sound corny, but there are times when a man just has to stand up to evil. If you think every mugger has a knife or gun, then you run away all your life. The main reason i've only ever been in one fight is because i've talked my way out of every other situation, or diffused it before it escalates, or if its been drunken friends ready to brawl, i just walk away or drag them away. I'm simply not interested in it. There are plenty of reasons why i've studied martial arts most of my life, one is to protect what is dearest to me, and if i judge correctly that an assailant(s) has no weapon other than his body then i will stand my ground.
To err on the side of caution is fine m8, but to program yourself to flee every time? You may end up being scared of your own shadow, and that aint the way i'd like to live my life.


I too have opted to diffuse situations in the past, but you miss my point. Of course if I was put in the situation where I was protecting others, such as my girlfriend or my family then my reactions would be different and of course I would take necessary steps to see that their safety is paramount.

Talking possessions however, as Grimm rightly says, whether you call it cowardness or not, I'd rather give up my wallet then give up my life. Or to put it another way, if you choose to give up your life over a possession, you won't be around to protect those you love - you've failed in two different ways then.

Its not about fleeing all the time, its a) about not putting yourself in those type of positions in the first place and b) taking the safest and easiest, less conflict way out of the situation. And damnit if that means retreating then I'll retreat. Do politicians say "f*ck it, lets just attack them, wipe em out, that'll be the end of the problem" or do they move for a peaceful resolution? The latter of course, unless your George Bush :D

Its ok to defend yourself when you have no choice, as that's what the definition of defense is - to protect from an attack. If someone attacks you without thought, you would defend yourself. Though if theres a standoff and its about who makes the decision first, I'd personally choose to not fight. I wouldn't be thinking "wow, if I don't fight I may be considered a coward" - well f*ck that! In this day in age, you'll take a dent in your pride, becasue as I say, there are now more people roaming the streets with knives and guns then ever before. Sure you don't know whether they do or don't have a weapon, but why take the risk and end up as just another homicide statistic laying on a slab in the morgue.

Banzai Joe wrote:Some of my attitude on this will have been formed from serving in the marines as a front line elite soldier, and can understand most people not buying into it.
Without trying to sound condescending to anyone, but maybe without some kind of military or combat arts training, people 'may' not possess that characteristic that enables them to put themselves at risk to protect what is theirs.


That makes no difference. Fight or flee is a base instinct. Everyone posseses it, everyone can utilise it.

EDIT: This is of course, all my own opinion and perhaps how I would personally deal with the above situations. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do things, just what I would do and what I feel about the subject (H) :>

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Postby Banzai Joe » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:05 pm

grimm wrote:
Banzai Joe wrote:people 'may' not possess that characteristic that enables them to put themselves at risk to protect what is theirs.


i think if there truly was a situation where it was "fight or you or a loved one will die" then everyone would step up to the challenge. however that situation will most likely never arise for 99.9% of people.

i think if you're suggesting that you'd put yourself at risk, however small, to protect for example a wallet in order to preserve your dignity, then you're a pretty stupid person.

for example, if someone was threatening my girlfriend i'd just put myself in between her and the attacker, and allow them to decide what happens next.

as for the part i quoted. in 99.9% of situations that characteristic might be a bad one to posess if it's combined with any sort of irrational thinking or lack of self control. dignity isn't something that someone can take away from you unless you let them (it's all in the mind). there's no need to re-affirm dignity by use of physical violence, that makes you no better than the attacker who tries to beat someone up in order to impress others.


Blimey, how people misinterpret or misunderstand posts is wildy interesting.

example 1: guy in street, walks up to you, looking nothing more than big and menacing "gimme your wallet w*nker!"
You: "sure here ya go, have a nice day!"
result: him happy, you p*ssed off, skint and have to cancel all your credit cards etc, and buy a new condom and a new wallet.

example 2: giun in street, walks up to you with knife in hand "gimme your wallet, w*nker!"
you: "ok, just take it and leave me be"
result: him happy, you p*ssed off, skint and have to cancel all your credit cards etc, and buy a new condom and a new wallet. BUT, you avoided injury possibly death

M8, i DO know and understand the difference.
If a situation presents itself where i think its within my power to do something about it for the good and without endangering anyone else, then yes, i will act.
I NEVER said i'd attack someone who had a knife or a gun. What i certainly meant was i would not simply hand over belongings or succumb to the demands of a bad person, IF i thought i could defy them.....without death ensuing.

I'm not a vigilante, a hero or whatever, but i wont sit idly by and let stuff like this happen if i can do anything about it, ya know why? cos its wrong!
How many times have you seen some innocent get a kicking (nothing more) by one or more assailants for no particular reason, and done nothing about it? I've done it, and i felt terrible for letting it happen. So the last time something like this took place, i intervened and stopped the guy having his head bashed in, although he probably deserved it as he was a pain in the arse.
So, yes, sometimes i would put myself at risk for others, i don't think that's stupid at all.
"A man should never have sexual intercourse with another man. God hates that!" Leviticus 18.

Logan

Postby Logan » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:16 pm

Banzai Joe wrote:Blimey, how people misinterpret or misunderstand posts is wildy interesting.


You contradict your examples and your last sentence below! :P :D

Banzai Joe wrote:example 1: guy in street, walks up to you, looking nothing more than big and menacing "gimme your wallet w*nker!"
You: "sure here ya go, have a nice day!"
result: him happy, you p*ssed off, skint and have to cancel all your credit cards etc, and buy a new condom and a new wallet.


Are you using this as an example of what you would do? Or would you refuse the attacker and get into a brawl? If the latter, could you be 100%, nay even 80% or less, sure that he does not have a gun or knife on his person? Stick a percentage on how sure you think you could be.

Banzai Joe wrote:I NEVER said i'd attack someone who had a knife or a gun. What i certainly meant was i would not simply hand over belongings or succumb to the demands of a bad person, IF i thought i could defy them.....without death ensuing.


But that's kinda my point! :D You can't guarantee that death will not ensue! Be it him or your life that fades. You still cannot guarantee in your mind that he hasn't got a weapon. Its impossible. Unless you've some how managed to tap into future prediction and psychic powers, and last time I checked, there was no martial art that teaches this ;) :D

Banzai Joe wrote:I'm not a vigilante, a hero or whatever, but i wont sit idly by and let stuff like this happen if i can do anything about it, ya know why? cos its wrong!


Indeed it is wrong, which is why we have a police force - or suposedly why! As they are supposed to protect us - or suposedly protect us! And they are there to track down the criminal and exact justice - or suposedly they're... :D

Banzai Joe wrote:How many times have you seen some innocent get a kicking (nothing more) by one or more assailants for no particular reason, and done nothing about it?


Never in my 24 years on the earth tbh. Though your previous employment history may have put you in situations that I have never been in of course.

Banzai Joe wrote:So, yes, sometimes i would put myself at risk for others, i don't think that's stupid at all.


Its not stupid, in that respect. Over possessions though, I would think differently personally.

EDIT: This is a pretty good discussion. I hope nobody is taking all this the wrong way. This isn't an argument or having a go at anyone, its a debate or discussion - so lets keep it friendly :D

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Postby grimm » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:24 pm

i didn't seriously think that you were like that, it was just implied by your eariler post. there's a fine line between retaining your dignity and stupidity and you didn't make that clear enough IMO. being a martial artist you should know full well that if you allowed something as trivial as an idiot off the street mouthing off at you to dent your pride, then you're not very mentally strong in the first place.

i think what you were in fact describing in your earlier post was the "alpha male" style approach to self defense, which is great if you're in the army, but it doesn't really apply to most real life situations (which was the point i was trying to get across, perhaps in a more extreme way than was necessary).

Logan wrote:This is a pretty good discussion. I hope nobody is taking all this the wrong way. This isn't an argument or having a go at anyone, its a debate or discussion - so lets keep it friendly :D


yup, that's the idea mate :) no hatin' here 8)

edit: as we've deviated from the topic slightly, i'll give my opinion on the style. i'd say that probably some form of karate or ju jitsu would be best, or any other MA that would give you good ability/technique to strike with your upper body. i wouldn't wanna be doing any kicking, it'd wreck my nice new shoes :)

most importantly though, reflexes and mental conditioning are essential (as someone said earlier, you have to get around that natural urge to sh*t yourself :tut: )

as i said earlier, most punks off the street will go down if you get in a good blow to the nose or throat, and even if they don't go down they're likely to be demoralised and/or confused and give up after they see that you know what you're doing.

messing with someone with a knife isn't a good idea because there's less room for error.

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Postby Adurul » Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:44 pm

My mate gets constantly picked on by people who think its clever to pick on a bloke who is 6'4 with arms like tree trunks. Fights are often not avoidable - sometimes you cant run away.
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Logan

Postby Logan » Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:49 pm

I obviously don't get out much then! :S Though that's simply not true.

All this 'my mate gets picked on' - where on earth do people go to get picked on!? :|

I have sh*t loads of friends in Milton Keynes. I have relatives, cousins, brothers, aunts, uncles and so forth all over the country and I have NEVER heard from any of them saying things like 'I was walking down the street the other day and got jumped by some youths who attacked/picked on me'. It just doesn't happen, least not in the people I know.

When you say picked on though, is it things like verbal abuse? Because that sort of thing IS avoidable. You can choose to ignore the comments and not rise to it. Or you can do the opposite. No?

If were talking childhood scraps, then that's slightly different. As I said before, Gem's bro used to get in a few fights when he was younger but that was through voluntarily hanging with the wrong types of people.

Its true you can't avoid some fights, but the majority have other options for resolution.

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Postby grimm » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:01 pm

i had a group of idiots attempting to bully me into getting out of their way in a queue of all places. things they did in an attempt to get me to move were spitting on my back, grabbing my ass then pretending that someone else did it, and probably a lot of crap that i wasn't aware of at the time. anyway it was in a shop so i couldn't exactly start anything in there, and everyone around me were choosing to ignore the situation i think. there were 4 of them and i was alone at the time. again this is manchester town centre on a saturday that this happened. i was pretty close to ramming my keys into one of their faces and ruining his day but i didn't.

i just walked away from that one, not sure if that was the right thing to do or not but that's what i did. i saw them later on though doing the same thing to someone else, so really i don't know what motivates people to do things like that.

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Postby Banzai Joe » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:04 pm

It IS interesting, thats why i split it, and yes, its a good debate, without it getting ot of hand.

Ok, having re-read most of the posts, i can accept that some of my blurb doesn't totally read back too well.

(Thats your 2s faults for being thick ;) )


Aaaannnnyway, as regards 'alpha male' its not even that tbh, its almost a sense of "how dare this c*nt, walk up to me and demand my money. Money i earned, money i deserve, no way is this scutter getting it!" I think it would border on disbelief of someone demanding it, possibly mixed with anger, BUT, it wouldn't lead me to irrational thoughts of attack if he was holding a .357 python.
If however, he was just a big overbearing git who only uses his size to intimidate and get what he wants, then he would NOT get what he wants without a fight, period! Point here is, there are those who would just cower and hand over the money/wallet/whatever, just because his looks scare them. I'm not blaming them, they may be of the demeanor that they'd rather hand over cash than get even a bruise, so be it. But its these people that will get preyed on and maybe make it easier for muggers to chance opportunities on others.
There's no blame here, its just i suppose the different values a person places on their A) belongings B) personal welfare.
Personally i would risk taking a beating to save someone stealing my wallet, as i would to stop someone else taking a kicking, if i knew there were no knives or guns, otherwise, yes, it would be senseless.
But i could never guarantee that if threatened with a knife, that i wouldn't stand my ground and defend myself. Its just in my nature, i have a chance against a knife, but not much of one against a gun.
Yes, most of it is bourne out of confidence gained in MA's, but that in no way means that i'd jump at the chance of dropping any assailant, or looking for trouble.
Logan, you remember reading Druss's code? Again, its corny, but i think there's still a place in today's society to honour that way of thinking. If there weren't, then this place would be far more lawless than it is now.
Remember the 2 grannies in last week news, who attacked a robber with their walking sticks when he broke into their house? Sure, they risked themselves, but it was defending their home, and in that situation, i'm not sure you'd have a great deal of time to deem whether a certain possession is worth fighting for or not. you just act, and that, as you mentioned earlier is another base instinct!

I have absolutely no ego when it comes to this kind of thing, but i also know that if i handed over my belongings to someone just cos they demanded it (without weapons), i wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror.

Logan, you really never seen another person or small group beating on a single person?
I was in the cinema the other month watching 'Elektra' and some drunk guy was in there mouthing off. When the film ended four lads attacked him, knocked him down and used his head as a football. I just basically ran in, pushed one aside and the rest scattered. The drunk was ok, although he was a tit, the lads were apprehended by security. I honestly think if i or no one else had intervened he could have been seriously injured. Plus he was at the top of the escalator and could have been kicked down it, and if that had happened, then i would have felt guilty as hell, because i 'could' have prevented it. So I have no regrets for what i did, and i didn't even need to hit anyone. Passive intervention.....of sorts :)
Fights don't always end with knives and guns, but i agree its best to be cautious. But my life's training and experience gives me the ability or at least confidence to more appropriately judge a situation. It aint mystical psychic powers, its just observation of body language and stuff like that.
i bet wtf, as a doorman could instantly tell if someone was thinking of causing trouble or not. We all say "He looks like a right troublemaker" when referring to someone we have a bad feeling about.

Discuss..... :razz:
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Postby darksun_uk » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:13 pm

controlled aggression and tactical awareness are my watch words , i have purposely avoided/diffused numerous violent situations simply by being aware of body language and situations i was in.as well as simply saying to someone once that i would fight and i knew how to and i would not be on his side (thus preventing a BIG fight at a party).thats not to say i cannot fight (i can) but that after studying human anatnomy and so forth i am very aware how fragile the human body can be and i will take serious measures to avoid damage to mine...that being said in certain situations i probably could justifiy violence a classic example being a defenceless person being attacked etc or in fact as mentioned some numpty attempting to rob me (unlikely but possible) i would hope to maintain a level of risk versus reward awarness in spite of this bascially emotional response but i really dont know for sure (thats the problem human beings are quite complex) 8)

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