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Sam
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Postby Sam » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:22 pm

Logan wrote:
Sam wrote:Congratulations on your lovely home town then logan.
sounds like heaven.
i might move there and be happy and content for the rest of my days.


Like anywhere, there are 'undesirable' areas here too, I'm just not stupid enough to go anywhere near them without good reason.

No need to be sarcastic either Sam. I'm not only talking about where I currently live, I'm also talking about areas my family have come from. As I stated before, I've never had any of them or 'heard through the grape vine' any of these stories people are coming out with in this thread.


There was no need at all to be sarcastic.
sorry logan - I shouldnt have been posting at all last night.

What i should have said was: if you live an area where you, none of your relatives or friends have ever been in, or ever heard of anyone else being involved in, a fight then you are quite lucky, but, (please dont take this the wrong way) you also must be quite sheltered as well to think that, in other parts of the country, nobody else has or do have fights.
"Can't kill a man without knowin' for sure you ought too..."

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Banzai Joe
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Postby Banzai Joe » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:57 pm

Gotta agree with you there Sam, 'Milton Keynes sounds like utopia' (jeez, never thought i'd say that in this lifetimes).
Logan, i am suprised m8, no matter how passive or sensible a person you are, trouble brews in all quarters of all towns/cities, you may choose to avoid them, but you can't avoid hearing about the problems surely.

Anyway, this is digressing. Imho the past dozen or so posts have been very informative and i think it shows mature thinking and reason on the posters behalf. I honestly don't see a right or wrong in anyones opinions, as they tend to differ depending on their own experiences and where they live.
"A man should never have sexual intercourse with another man. God hates that!" Leviticus 18.

Logan

Postby Logan » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:59 pm

Sam wrote:What i should have said was: if you live an area where you, none of your relatives or friends have ever been in, or ever heard of anyone else being involved in, a fight then you are quite lucky, but, (please dont take this the wrong way) you also must be quite sheltered as well to think that, in other parts of the country, nobody else has or do have fights.


Well personally, I've lived in London and Milton Keynes. As a kid, I got into 'scraps' whilst living in London and in Milton Keynes as a youngster I can only remember one incident where I was in nothing more then a childhood 'scrap'. But thats not really what I was referring to. You guys have all mentioned things like nowadays, when you walk down the street, you're (or someone you've known has been) picked on or attacked! Never personally happened to me nor as I previously stated, have I heard in recent times, similar from all my friends or family members from around the UK.

I'm not of course, saying that 'muggings' etc. do not happen, what I am saying though, is you obviously a) get into the wrong places at the wrong time or b) look for a fight in one way or another. And by that I don't mean purposely go looking for a fight, but as previously mentioned in this thread, there are other ways to difuse arguments or avoid encounters/fights.

As for being sheltered, not really. As I said above, lived in two different towns/cities. I'm a re-enactor for the last few years so have been around the country at events. I work for the railway out on track from North to South, East to West. Couple all that with general visiting, holidaying etc.

I've been around. I'm far from what I would interpret 'sheltered'.

Though that said, I don't regularly go clubbing nor do I stay out late in pubs and clubs on a regular basis. But we are not talking about that are we? The examples that have been given have all been of the sort 'I was happily going about my business walking down the highstreet when I was jumped'. Exagerated. That's my opinion on those. Exagerated and influenced by media, hearsay and gossip.

England is not like that at all. I've walked countless highstreets around the UK, day and night and to my recollection I've never been in one where I've felt 'threatened'. But as I previously have mentioned, I stay out of those situations. I avoid threatening situations. I vere off a highstreet down a small dark alley way - its not going to happen. Common sense is going to tell me that's not a good idea. If I see a gang of youths that I think will cause trouble, I'll ignore and avoid them (though as I say, never really come across that, I've never been heckled or spoken to by groups of youths I've walked past).

And I'll still firmly stand by my statement, what in God's name is the point of getting into a fight if you can take steps to avoid it?

Frankly, there isn't any point. You can talk about pride and honor till the cows come home - well they ain't no good to you when you're dead or lying in hospital because it didn't go the way you had hoped it would. Only in those rare cases where its completely 100% unavoidable or indeed if its to protect a loved one, then there's no reason for me at least, to want to fight with somebody.

Banzai Joe wrote:Gotta agree with you there Sam, 'Milton Keynes sounds like utopia' (jeez, never thought i'd say that in this lifetimes).


As I said above, there are of course areas in Milton Keynes that you would cosider 'undesirable'. There are of course the usual pubs and clubs drunken fights on occassion. But as I say, were not talking about those type of things, least thats not how I've interpret the examples that have been given in this thread.

Banzai Joe wrote:Logan, i am suprised m8, no matter how passive or sensible a person you are, trouble brews in all quarters of all towns/cities, you may choose to avoid them, but you can't avoid hearing about the problems surely.


And therein, lies the problem and precisely demonstrates my comment re: the media, hearsay and gossip.

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Postby Banzai Joe » Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:40 pm

Dude, newspapers are full of BS, but you aint gonna watch 6pm news talking about a mugging that simply 'didn't' happen!

Doesn't matter if its the media that report it, it still happens, more so now than at any other time in society, i'm sure most would agree with that.
I'm from Nottingham, labelled as gun crime capital of the uk and yes, my friend was shot dead a few months back (which i posted about).
But, like you i never experience that kind of trouble 1st hand, but omg i know all about it, and know where it happens. But i'll be damned if whenever i see a dodgy looking character walking towards me that i'll cross the street 'just to be sure and safe'.
I too will reiterate... I will not give up my possessions to someone who demands them unless i have proof that my life is in danger (ie. he is armed and looks like he'll use it).
Let me ask this, Larn posted about his gay friend who seems to be robbed almost weekly. If that happened to you, how many times would you have to be robbed before you said "f*ck this, i'm not putting up with this sh*t anymore!" and decided to react the next time it happened. Or would you just let yourself be bitched by every mugger around?
Another hypothetical question. If you're in your local pub, drinking with loads of friends, and the usual drunken idiot IS looking for trouble. He says "you spilled my pint!" (i've actually had this happen to me, so it does happen). He's clearly after trouble, so he won't accept any reasoning from you. Do you A) buy him another pint, B) tell him to shove it C) leave YOUR local pub, and have to uproot all your friends and possibly risk spoiling your night just for one tosser?
To me A) is out of the question. I not keen on C) either. But, i would also weigh up the situation before using B). But B) is most likely my response, and i'd do it firmly as well, so he knows i'm no pushover. Chances are, he'll back down, but even if he doesn't, i'd sooner risk his response to B) than me opt for A) or C).

Like most, i do abhore this kind of behaviour in modern society, and i dont like fighting, butmaybe standing up to assailants on occasion is my way of 'doing my bit'.
I'm proud to have served my country and i have pride in a lot of things, and it wont be so easily dented or taken away by someone who wants my wallet, not if i can help it.
I don't subscribe to the 'what if he had a weapon' line of thought. Cos if thats the general idea, then i'd best not go to work in the a.m in case i get run over by a bus.

Not trying to be sarcy here guys, just another way of making my point :)
If you live in the shadows, thats all you'll ever be.
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Postby Sam » Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:08 pm

England is not like that at all.


Im not sure if thats denial or ignorance logan.
And by sheltered i meant in general day to day life not travel.
you mention avoiding groups of people who look like trouble etc - why should you?!?!?
joe's already covered most of what i would say (great minds eh joe...) but his last line of his last post sums up most of this thread in one go.
"Can't kill a man without knowin' for sure you ought too..."

Logan

Postby Logan » Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:26 pm

Banzai Joe wrote:Dude, newspapers are full of BS, but you aint gonna watch 6pm news talking about a mugging that simply 'didn't' happen!


That's not what I meant.

Banzai Joe wrote:Doesn't matter if its the media that report it, it still happens, more so now than at any other time in society, i'm sure most would agree with that.


Again, I'm not disagreeing with that. You're talking 'serious' encounters. That's a different kettle of fish. They happen, of course. But these examples of being 'picked' on or verbally abused - they can't be compared to being mugged or raped or whatever at knife or gun point.

Banzai Joe wrote:But i'll be damned if whenever i see a dodgy looking character walking towards me that i'll cross the street 'just to be sure and safe'.


*sigh*

Nor do I, and again, that is not what I was talking about. It just doesn't happen or never has happened to me. I've never really felt the need to have to cross the street 'just to be sure and safe'. What I am trying to put across clearly isn't coming out the way I'm intending. I don't deliberately go out of my way to avoid said situation, but I don't seem to ever put myself in said situation in the first place. Again that won't make sense I guess, but I know what I mean!

Banzai Joe wrote:I too will reiterate... I will not give up my possessions to someone who demands them unless i have proof that my life is in danger (ie. he is armed and looks like he'll use it).


I don't disagree, what I was originally saying about this was that you cannot be positive that he isn't carrying a concealed weapon. So you'd rather risk a 50/50 chance your life will be taken over a few lousy quid in your wallet? Just doesn't make sense, least not to me anyway.

Banzai Joe wrote:Let me ask this, Larn posted about his gay friend who seems to be robbed almost weekly. If that happened to you, how many times would you have to be robbed before you said "f*ck this, i'm not putting up with this sh*t anymore!" and decided to react the next time it happened.


I missed the post in question, I'll go re-read in a minute. But firstly, I would ask Larn where these attacks have happened and under what circumstances. Where these attacks on him whilst he was walking down a street? Or was he somewhere else?

EDIT: Just read it...

Larny Boy wrote:Quite a few of the feminine men at work have been mugged on their way home from a late shift and one in particular seemed to get robbed on a weekly basis at one point.


Harsh. But as I say, would like to know where these muggings took place. Out in the open? On a main street? In front of people? If thats the case, then clearly England isn't how I had perceived it in a past comment in this post. Still, I have not ever experienced or heard of from friends/family such as the above.

Though what does 'seemed' mean?

Banzai Joe wrote:Or would you just let yourself be bitched by every mugger around?


Getting quite sick and tired of you insisting that my viewpoint on avoiding violence being directed at me in a tone that suggests I'm some pansy or wuss. I'm not. Just because I tend to avoid violence whilst you would clearly choose to embrace it, does not mean I am either of them.

Banzai Joe wrote:Another hypothetical question. If you're in your local pub, drinking with loads of friends, and the usual drunken idiot IS looking for trouble. He says "you spilled my pint!" (i've actually had this happen to me, so it does happen). He's clearly after trouble, so he won't accept any reasoning from you. Do you A) buy him another pint, B) tell him to shove it C) leave YOUR local pub, and have to uproot all your friends and possibly risk spoiling your night just for one tosser?
To me A) is out of the question. I not keen on C) either. But, i would also weigh up the situation before using B). But B) is most likely my response, and i'd do it firmly as well, so he knows i'm no pushover. Chances are, he'll back down, but even if he doesn't, i'd sooner risk his response to B) than me opt for A) or C).


Never been in the situation, but I'll answer you hypothetically.

First off, I can't ever imagine some sole stranger, turns to me and the group of my friends looking to start a fight over a spilt pint. Not because he wouldn't, but if you were in his position, would you start a fight with me whilst I'm sitting amongst my mates? You wouldn't. Its not going to happen. Because like I would, he'd be assessing the situation. He's hardly likely to start anything when he's outnumbered 5 to 1 or whatever the odds are.

But to answer your question, I'd take option D which you failed to give. I'd apologise for spilling his pint, and yes, if I had genuinely spilt his pint, I would offer to buy him another. What's wrong with that? I spilt his pint, I'd gladly offer to buy him another. Why would I spill his pint then get all up in his face telling him to go f*ck himself? I was in the wrong.

Unless you're talking in terms of him accusing me of spilling his pint when I was nowhere near it. Then I would tell him he's in the wrong, but unlike you I wouldn't get all abusive and in his face, I'd try to calm him down and talk to him. I'll then refer you to my paragraph just above, about 5 to 1 odds. He's not going to start a fight anyway. If he did insist on getting into a fight with a group of us, chances are he's going to get the sh*t kicked out of him anyway. I really can't imagine why he would start. In your real life example then, did this drunkard start on you and your mates?

Something else I may do if he's not taking no for an answer, I'd notify the barman. He'd have him thrown out and I can sit down with my mates and continue enjoying the evening! Its a better alternative to starting a fight with him and risk ALL of us getting thrown out.

Banzai Joe wrote:maybe standing up to assailants on occasion is my way of 'doing my bit'.


Doing your bit for what? Bravery? Pride? Honor? Country!? You're not serving your country now mate. Instead of risking your life for your country whilst a soldier, you are now risking your life for nothing (note: especially if over measly possesions). Well I wish you every success and luck in future altercations with assailents mate. I just hope that one day I don't see your name on the local newspaper under 'man shot dead, suspect still on the loose' headline.

Banzai Joe wrote:I don't subscribe to the 'what if he had a weapon' line of thought. Cos if thats the general idea, then i'd best not go to work in the a.m in case i get run over by a bus.[/quiote]

In your lifetime, your chances of getting into such an altercation with an assailent are far, far, far smaller then your trips to work. You could be hit by a bus every day, busses are uniform, busses are regular like clockwork. The same does not apply for 'muggings'. They are opportunistic. So you would assess the situation on the fly.

Banzai Joe wrote:If you live in the shadows, thats all you'll ever be.


Thanks once again, for portraying me as some kind of pathetic wimp :roll:

Sam wrote:Im not sure if thats denial or ignorance logan.


Call it what you like! Personally I'll say its through my own personal experience. But there ya go.

Sam wrote:And by sheltered i meant in general day to day life not travel.


I assume like you, I get up in the morning, I travel to work, I work, I may go out on my lunch break, I go home. I then may go out after work, go shopping, eat out. I then may choose to go to a pub for a drink or I may choose to stay in.

Does that differ to your day-to-day life?

Sam wrote:you mention avoiding groups of people who look like trouble etc - why should you?!?!?


*sigh*

IF that IS what I said, then that is NOT what I meant. See my above reply to Joe. Obviously my posts aren't coming across the way I intend.

Sam wrote:but his last line of his last post sums up most of this thread in one go.


Heres one for you:

If you choose to stay in the search light, expect to be found and dealt with.
Last edited by Logan on Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Big Lazy » Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:38 pm

Logan wrote:
Banzai Joe wrote:Let me ask this, Larn posted about his gay friend who seems to be robbed almost weekly. If that happened to you, how many times would you have to be robbed before you said "f*ck this, i'm not putting up with this sh*t anymore!" and decided to react the next time it happened.


I missed the post in question, I'll go re-read in a minute. But firstly, I would ask Larn where these attacks have happened and under what circumstances. Where these attacks on him whilst he was walking down a street? Or was he somewhere else?
Hey dude :d Nah these attacks weren't on me, not that I'm a hard case or anything but someone my size doesn't usually get targeted for a mugging (touch wood). The lad in question is a rather easy target though and he got mugged a lot whilst walking through the city centre at night on his way home. Sadly there's a lot of this kinda thing happening in Brum. Parts of the city centre, and definitely all the surrounding areas for about a 1 mile radius are very dodgy places. Walking alone at night (which a lot of people have to do) leaves you open to attack.

I've been in a few near battles myself in the city centre, the most outrageous one was in Mackies cos I got served before some big black fella. When he mouthed off to kid serving me and tried to push me outta the way he got pushed back and it caused a right scene. I dont mean this to sound in any way racist but the blacks in Brum these days think they can do and say anything as most are in gangs (at at least think they are) I'm sure you've all seen the recent Brum riots on the news, thats been building up due to years of tension in the areas surrounding the city and its gonna get worse due to all the black gangs attitudes.
Pimp or die baby!

Logan

Postby Logan » Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:45 pm

Larny Boy wrote:Hey dude :d


Heh hehe :P I just went back and read your post, quoted it above whilst you were writing this.

Larny Boy wrote:Nah these attacks weren't on me, not that I'm a hard case or anything but someone my size doesn't usually get targeted for a mugging (touch wood). The lad in question is a rather easy target though and he got mugged a lot whilst walking through the city centre at night on his way home. Sadly there's a lot of this kinda thing happening in Brum. Parts of the city centre, and definitely all the surrounding areas for about a 1 mile radius are very dodgy places. Walking alone at night (which a lot of people have to do) leaves you open to attack.


Fair comment. I guess I'm just not accustomed to living in a BIG city where this sort of thing happens. I can't really think of a similar place in Milton Keynes if I'm honest. I just don't ever hear of it happening, not like you mention above.

Though I do have to ask, when you say they 'have to do' in reference to walking home from work late, why do they have to? Do they not drive or catch busses?

HatchA

Postby HatchA » Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:58 pm

Sam wrote:you mention avoiding groups of people who look like trouble etc - why should you?!?!?


Because, Sam.... when strolling about my merry way and I turn a corner and see a group of 6 guys just "looking like trouble" (you know the sort...) I'm not concerned with wondering how many of them it would take to kick the sh*t outta me..... I'm concerned with knowin how many they're gonna use.....

There's a useful piece of information right there....

I'd be wth Logan on this point (although I've just glossed over the last page really) but WHY in gods name would one DECIDE to "unavoid" a group of people who look like trouble etc... if there was another way around them, or whatever the situation was, but confrontation possibly resulting in serious injury (you OR them) could be avoided???

Logan

Postby Logan » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:03 pm

HatchA wrote:Because, Sam.... when strolling about my merry way and I turn a corner and see a group of 6 guys just "looking like trouble" (you know the sort...) I'm not concerned with wondering how many of them it would take to kick the sh*t outta me..... I'm concerned with knowin how many they're gonna use.....

There's a useful piece of information right there....

I'd be wth Logan on this point (although I've just glossed over the last page really) but WHY in gods name would one DECIDE to "unavoid" a group of people who look like trouble etc... if there was another way around them, or whatever the situation was, but confrontation possibly resulting in serious injury (you OR them) could be avoided???


Agreed. You've kinda summed up everything I've been trying to say, but as usual, I'm saying it in about 10,000 words :D lol

Now I've seen you Hatch, I've met you. You're a big bloke. You're a nice bloke. You're a clever bloke. And its fair to say, I would assume that if you wanted to, you could handle yourself fairly easily in such a situation.

The difference that you have demonstrated with your post above, which has been lacking in all the other posts in this thread, is that you would use your brain and not your brawn.

Now to me personally, that is something to respect, something I would respect.

HatchA

Postby HatchA » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:06 pm

Logan wrote:
HatchA wrote:Because, Sam.... when strolling about my merry way and I turn a corner and see a group of 6 guys just "looking like trouble" (you know the sort...) I'm not concerned with wondering how many of them it would take to kick the sh*t outta me..... I'm concerned with knowin how many they're gonna use.....

There's a useful piece of information right there....

I'd be wth Logan on this point (although I've just glossed over the last page really) but WHY in gods name would one DECIDE to "unavoid" a group of people who look like trouble etc... if there was another way around them, or whatever the situation was, but confrontation possibly resulting in serious injury (you OR them) could be avoided???


Agreed. You've kinda summed up everything I've been trying to say, but as usual, I'm saying it in about 10,000 words :D lol

Now I've seen you Hatch, I've met you. You're a big bloke. You're a nice bloke. You're a clever bloke. And its fair to say, I would assume that if you wanted to, you could handle yourself fairly easily in such a situation.

The difference that you have demonstrated with your post above, which has been lacking in all the other posts in this thread, is that you would use your brain and not your brawn.

Now to me personally, that is something to respect, something I would respect.


:|

erm..... thanks dude...? :|

Logan

Postby Logan » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:07 pm

HatchA wrote: :|

erm..... thanks dude...? :|


lol, just stating facts :P

But in a 'never confused' kinda way y'know. Sorry to get you all excited :D lol 8)

HatchA

Postby HatchA » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:12 pm

Logan wrote:
HatchA wrote: :|

erm..... thanks dude...? :|


lol, just stating facts :P

But in a 'never confused' kinda way y'know. Sorry to get you all excited :D lol 8)


sorry to disappoint here pal... I wasn't "excited," :D I was just taken aback by your comments :)

hehehe "HatchA, the Gentle Giant..." 8)

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Postby Big Lazy » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:52 pm

Logan wrote:
Larny Boy wrote:Nah these attacks weren't on me, not that I'm a hard case or anything but someone my size doesn't usually get targeted for a mugging (touch wood). The lad in question is a rather easy target though and he got mugged a lot whilst walking through the city centre at night on his way home. Sadly there's a lot of this kinda thing happening in Brum. Parts of the city centre, and definitely all the surrounding areas for about a 1 mile radius are very dodgy places. Walking alone at night (which a lot of people have to do) leaves you open to attack.


Fair comment. I guess I'm just not accustomed to living in a BIG city where this sort of thing happens. I can't really think of a similar place in Milton Keynes if I'm honest. I just don't ever hear of it happening, not like you mention above.

Though I do have to ask, when you say they 'have to do' in reference to walking home from work late, why do they have to? Do they not drive or catch busses?
Would ya believe that there's no buses that take you around the city centre? They all travel through it for sure, but there's not a dedicated bus that goes around the city :S

Parking is also a major issue in Brum (so glad I dont drive) and most who do travel in by car end up parking it a good mile away from where they work too. At vodafone we have a small carpark under the building thats for management only (bastards) and the nearest public car park is at the top of Broad St, so you're guaranteed a horde of wee wee heads to wade through.

You gotta come to Brum one of the weekends dude, its a right eye opener, especially the gay section of town (never confused mind)
Pimp or die baby!

HatchA

Postby HatchA » Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:02 pm

Larny Boy wrote:You gotta come to Brum one of the weekends dude, its a right eye opener, especially the gay section of town (never confused mind)


"....if you book it, we will come...."


'specially if you still remember where that filthy bird lives... ;)

anyone else up for a weekend in Brum???


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