Curiosity

A forum for discussion on all things related to the martial-arts and oriental sword-arts

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SeanDrake
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Curiosity

Post by SeanDrake » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:35 am

Was just wondering if ppl class Olympic Freestyle wrestling as a martial art or a sport.

Might help sort a disagrement out between me and a mate :D

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Hatamoto
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Post by Hatamoto » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:38 am

I've never really considered wrestling as a martial art, coz I was raised on the WWF sort of wrestling, which is obviously for entertainment only, but I guess wrestling is fighting, so it's martial, and there's a lot of technical detail to it, so I suppose it is an art.

Can't say I've ever really thought of it, really. Though wrestling is part of MMA, so I guess it has to be :)

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Banzai Joe
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Post by Banzai Joe » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:47 am

aye, its debatable.
A similar thread like this erupted on another forum i frequented once. For some crazy reason, it turned nasty. :dunno:

Most folk seem to think of martial arts as eastern in origin and of a type of disciplined form of combat taught to possibly military standards/establishments.

There's a helluva lot of wrestling/grappling in older japanese and chinese martial arts. Also in europe. where it was/is possibly more popular.

I was once told MAs were methods of combat taught for war. Others disagreed........... still :dunno:

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stYx
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Post by stYx » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:05 am

I've always classed proper 'Olympic Freestyle wrestling' as a sport myself!

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Lexxorcist
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Post by Lexxorcist » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:16 am

I've never watched olympic wrestling, but a greco roman wrestler (Dan Severn) did extremely well in the UFC mixed martial arts competitions. It certainly went up in my estimation after only seeing WWF, and Big Daddy/Giant Haystacks as a kid. It can be very effective.

Dan Severn:

Image

Image

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stYx
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Post by stYx » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:19 am

Lexxorcist wrote:I've never watched olympic wrestling, but a greco roman wrestler (Dan Severn) did extremely well in the UFC mixed martial arts competitions. It certainly went up in my estimation after only seeing WWF, and Big Daddy/Giant Haystacks as a kid. It can be very effective.

Dan Severn:

Image

Image
Whilst i do believe that the WWF style wrestlers are indeed Athletes, their stuff and this is purely my own opinion is just a collection of stunts, and shouldnt be confused with 'real' wrestling.

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Lexxorcist
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Post by Lexxorcist » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:23 am

stYx wrote: Whilst i do believe that the WWF style wrestlers are indeed Athletes, their stuff and this is purely my own opinion is just a collection of stunts, and shouldnt be confused with 'real' wrestling.
I agree. Dan Servern isn't (as far as I'm aware) a WWF wrestler. I've only seen him fight in the UFC MMA competitions, and he did well against a variety of martial artists.

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Lexxorcist
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Post by Lexxorcist » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:45 am

Found a pic from a fight I watched. Royce Gracie (jiu jitsu) won this one though. It was a very close fight though, I thought Severn had him for a while. I'm a karate fanboy, but people like Gracie and Severn really opened my eyes to the effectiveness of good grappling. Once you're on the floor with either of those guys, unless you can grapple you're pretty much screwed.

Image

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SeanDrake
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Post by SeanDrake » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:46 pm

Well I trained in Olympic Freestyle for 4 years and while I would say it is mostly a sport I do consider it a martial art as well.

I was lucky to train with a small group of experienced coaches who tried to think outside of the normal training regimes used.
To that end cross training in various other arts was organised including a week long trip to russia to study Sambo(God those guys get up early) vists to and from instructors in ju jitsu,judo and others.
As well as studying various other forms of traditonal wrestling such as highland,greco and cumberland wrestling.

Now I think when I 1st started training Freestyle was a martial art they were only a few restrictions on the types of moves used mainly no chokeing and no bending a limb against the joint and no strikes and that was pretty much it hence the cross training.
but due to injures some pretty serious the rules were expanded to outlaw other things and it turned more in the derection of a sport but there again still an effective form of combat.

Thanks to it's hybrid style Freestyle is probably the closest to being a martial art of the western wrestling styles imho.

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Lexxorcist
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Post by Lexxorcist » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:09 pm

I don't see anything wrong with it being both a martial art and a sport. The karate you see in competitions is quite different to the practical stuff you learn. You won't see anyone grabbing their opponents balls in a competition. :| Some students focus on the sporting side, and that's fine.

The MMA fights I saw Severn in were anything goes. Chokes and submissions from bending arms and legs against the joints etc were all allowed, and when that's the case it's quite formidable. I'd rather see a KO/Sumbisson fight than a points one, but most people who watch things like the Olympics don't want to see that.

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stYx
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Post by stYx » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:11 pm

I think the keyword here is 'freestyle', think that could head down the martial arts route! I dont think id class 'standard' wrestling as Martial arts thou!

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DrunkDwarf
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Post by DrunkDwarf » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:56 pm

Proper Wrestling (not the televised stuff), is both a Martial Art and a Sport, as is Boxing and Kickboxing...

Nearly all Martial Arts are also classes as Sports.

http://www.answers.com/martial%20art

Though, we all know, that there will be plenty of ignorant people out there that think "Martial Arts" have to be of Asian origin.

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Banzai Joe
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Post by Banzai Joe » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:00 pm

DrunkDwarf wrote:Proper Wrestling (not the televised stuff), is both a Martial Art and a Sport, as is Boxing and Kickboxing...

Nearly all Martial Arts are also classes as Sports.

http://www.answers.com/martial%20art

Though, we all know, that there will be plenty of ignorant people out there that think "Martial Arts" have to be of Asian origin.
Here's a quote from that informative link you posted DD.
Jujitsu teaches skills that enable one to overcome a bigger, stronger opponent. A popular style of jujitsu is aikido, which uses wrist, elbow, and shoulder twists and graceful falls; it is noncompetitive and incorporates various spiritual concepts. Judo, a Japanese sport created in 1882, makes use of jujitsu principles. Other popular forms of martial arts include kung fu, karate, and taekwondo, all of which emphasize blows with the feet and the side of the hand, and kendo, in which leather-covered bamboo “swords” are used. Judo and taekwondo are Olympic sports. Capoeira, a dancelike Brazilian discipline whose movements are performed to rhythmic music, is gaining in popularity.
Any aikidoka and kendoka will have a chuckle at the bits in bold.........seeing as they are wrong and wrong! :S

This is probably why there is no definitive answer. Cos uneducated fools make up sh*t like the quote above. (no disrespect to you DD, i know you didn't write the crap on the link 8) )

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Big Lazy
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Post by Big Lazy » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:40 pm

If anyone here is old enough to remember British wrestling back in the 70's and 80's (on ITV's World of sport) then you'll remember that a lot of the holds they did were very similar to judo holds and throws (with the exception of Big Daddy of course who just let people bounce off him lol) It was also heavily submission based too and although obviously fake some of it did look bloody painful

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Lexxorcist
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Post by Lexxorcist » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:51 pm

Dwarfs link was questionalble, but western boxing is a martial art, which i think is the point he was trying to make. Martial arts isn't just that "Jackie Chan bollox". lol

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