Ninjitsu by Dr. Hatsumi

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Banzai Joe
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Postby Banzai Joe » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:43 am

ON TOPIC:

I studied togakure ninjitsu, which Dr Masaaki Hatsumi is the 34th Grandmaster of, and i've been taught by some seniors who studied under him and Shidoshi Brian Hayes. There is a lot of public facing b*llsh!t involved in ninjitsu, but a lot is extremely brutal and effective. You can't show that on t.v. or in a dojo otherwise you'd have no students left, as they'd all be broken.
Even ninjitsu maintains links with koryu and tradition. But it is an art that evolves with the times, hence the gun-work etc.

OFF-TOPiC

Oni no Tengu wrote:The other purpose for a wakizashi would be to commit seppuku.

Not really! Tanto of varying lengths were far more often used in seppuku. Waks were not intentionally used for that purpose. They were used, but it wasn't a reason for their existence.

Oni no Tengu wrote:This gave the appearance that they were actually samurai, while enabling them to avoid prosecution (or rather execution), for it was only samurai that were allowed to carry katana.

Nope! Samurai were the only ones 'allowed' to carry 2 swords, not just a katana.

darkphoton1 wrote:the wakizashi i think was always with a samurai (even when a samurai slept it would be under his pillow) and it was always carried with.
to buildings where katanas were not allowed, the samurai would carry a wakizashi anyway.



The wak is/was a house sword, the katana is/was a battlefield sword. Try swinging one of those around in a low roofed japanese house! It wasn't any kind of law about leaving katana at the door, it was probably common sense and as said, out of respect to the house owner. And it wouldn't be kept under his pillow. It would be standing up with the kissaki pointing to the roof, so the tsuka (handle) was to the floor and hence nearest to the samurai so he could arm himself quickly.
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Hatamoto
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Postby Hatamoto » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:05 pm

I read somewhere that a samurai would defeat his opponent with the katana, but sometimes take the head as a trophy, or something, with the waka. This was years ago, I don't remember the source, but I haven't heard anything like that since.. any idea if it was just bull, or did they actually do that?

Apologies for extended the waka-specific chatter :$

To stay on topic just a little bit, I tried ninjitsu a few weeks ago. Class opened with a game of slaps. Very odd :p
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Postby HatchA » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:10 pm

Banzai Joe wrote:
Oni no Tengu wrote:The other purpose for a wakizashi would be to commit seppuku.

Not really! Tanto of varying lengths were far more often used in seppuku. Waks were not intentionally used for that purpose. They were used, but it wasn't a reason for their existence.

Oni no Tengu wrote:This gave the appearance that they were actually samurai, while enabling them to avoid prosecution (or rather execution), for it was only samurai that were allowed to carry katana.

Nope! Samurai were the only ones 'allowed' to carry 2 swords, not just a katana.

darkphoton1 wrote:the wakizashi i think was always with a samurai (even when a samurai slept it would be under his pillow) and it was always carried with.
to buildings where katanas were not allowed, the samurai would carry a wakizashi anyway.



The wak is/was a house sword, the katana is/was a battlefield sword. Try swinging one of those around in a low roofed japanese house! It wasn't any kind of law about leaving katana at the door, it was probably common sense and as said, out of respect to the house owner. And it wouldn't be kept under his pillow. It would be standing up with the kissaki pointing to the roof, so the tsuka (handle) was to the floor and hence nearest to the samurai so he could arm himself quickly.


What he said!! 8)

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Postby darkphoton1 » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:15 pm

Banzai Joe wrote:Tanto of varying lengths were far more often used in seppuku.



thats why the first time i saw the "PRACTICLE" tanto i was like "ooookkk..... practical....."

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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:21 pm

darkphoton1 wrote:
Banzai Joe wrote:Tanto of varying lengths were far more often used in seppuku.



thats why the first time i saw the "PRACTICLE" tanto i was like "ooookkk..... practical....."


because seppuku is a common practice, in the 21st century, and the practical tanto is made for that very reason. in fact ALL tanto were made for that reason... its a knife, kid... just a knife. it was also a couple of hundred years ago.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Postby Frodocious » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:46 pm

I study Ninjutsu and videos like that make me mad. They play to the Hollywood Ninja image, which for the most part is rubbish. They are all about what looks good on camera and, whilst the techniques displayed are part of the training, the way in which they are depicted in this clip makes the whole art come across as out of touch and impractical. Unfortunately the subtleness of many of the techniques we use doesn't make for good viewing.

The real nitty gritty of the art is eminently practical and useful for modern day self defence
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Postby Oni no Tengu » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:48 am

Taken from this page..
http://swordforum.com/swords/nihonto/wakizashi.html

"but was also the sword of merchants and artisans who were forbidden by edict from wearing a katana".

So my statement was correct, the Katana was only to be carried by Law by samurai, but it was'nt the only sword carried by them!

And I never said the Wakizashi's SOUL purpose was for seppuku, I just stated it was often used for the act, which it was.

Although someone else seems to think the wakizashi was used for seppuku.

http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Wakizashi

http://www.scottish-jujitsu.com/seppeku.htm

http://www.win.net/ratsnest/archive-art ... 00384.html

You only have to search for "use of wakizashi" in google to find many others.

The wakizashi was always kept under the samurai's pillow while he slept, NOT as you suggested!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakizashi

scroll down to samurai-weapons on this page, and read the excerpt..

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Samurai/id/1894446

"The wakizashi itself was a samurai's "honour blade" and purportedly never left the samurai's side. He would sleep with it under his pillow and would be taken with him when he entered a house and had to leave his main weapons outside".

Leaving his main weapon outside also throws up this line from this page..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakizashi

A wakizashi was used as a samurai's weapon when the katana was unavailable. When entering a building, a samurai would leave his katana with a servant or page who would then let it rest on a rack called a katana-kake with the hilt pointing left so that it had to be removed with the left hand, passed to the right, then placed at the samurai's right, making it difficult to draw quickly, and reducing suspicion.

Onto something different, while searching through google to find links to back up my statements, I found this page..

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Fringe.htm

and half way down found this..

Manchester, England. March 2004. A 25-year-old man who killed an armed robber with a samurai sword was sent to prison for eight years. The man made the attack after finding four men armed with a gun at his front door. The victim was stabbed four times and died at a hospital. Three men were charged with robbery and firearms possession. (source: The Daily Record).

That sounds pretty harsh, 8 years cos you defended yourself and your property when it was pretty obvious to anyone reading that with an ounce of intelligence that 4 men armed with a gun are not just stopping by to say hello!

Anyway I'm bored with finding links to back up my statements.

I've probably read more on Japans history and culture and the samurai/ninja than most people on this forum, I've read hundreds of books, and watched tons of documentaries, I don't say anything unless I'm sure it has factual content, I don't make wild guesses or make assumptions on what I've heard from other people.
I read the facts and state them as I need to.

If you don't believe me, I suggest you do the research yourselves, before you start making statements That I'm definately wrong!

Thank you! rant over! :@

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Hatamoto
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Postby Hatamoto » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:18 am

Won't comment on how seriously you're backing up what you said, but in response to the guy being sent down for eight years, I dunno if it's harsh.

He answered his door and there were people with guns. He had the sword in his hand, or something? And he stabbed the guy FOUR times? That would suggest INTENT to kill.. once you could assume was self defence, persoally if I was trying to kill someone and he stabbed me, I'd be a bi t put off :p But four times, that's going a smidge beyond self defence, imo.
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Oni no Tengu

Postby Oni no Tengu » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:52 am

Yeh! I suppose your right about the 4 strikes with the sword.
That was a bit excessive.
To be honest though, if that was me, I'd be scared silly, and probably strike out until I was sure the threat was gone.
So in my case, all four would probably be dead, and probably me too.

You can't say though what you would do in the same situation though, cos in that sort of situation calm thoughts tend to go outta the window and the adrenaline kicks in and thoughts of self preservation tend to take over, That can be either fight or flight.

In the same situation though, I don't think I would have opened the door at all.
And if they had of got in, then I would have had no qualms in using my ninja-to to defend myself, But because a gun was obviously involved, I probably would have struck first.

Besides, I'd rather do 8 years than be in a f*cking box!

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Hatamoto
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Postby Hatamoto » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:08 am

Ah, of course, nobody can accurately predict how they'll react.. I was in a streetfight and froze, yet when a trained guy came at me with a shinai I was in the moment and rocked his ass.. the human mind is a bloody weird thing, lol.

I was merely commenting on how it looks, yknow, it isn't such a surprise he got sent down for that long when you consider how it looks to police, and so on.
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darkphoton1
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Postby darkphoton1 » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:24 pm

Oni no Tengu wrote:rather do 8 years than be in a f*cking box!



100% agree, if there were four men with guns i would probably get the hell outa there or hide somewhere and call the police.

if the worst came to worst i wouldnt regret severing someones head off or stabbing them with a samurai sword (was it a katana?, because i think a waki or tanto woudl be more effective.) if it meant being able to get back on track 8 years later

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Postby Lexxorcist » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:30 pm

I haven't read the article, but was his sentance so severe becuase he used a 'real weapon', or would it have been the same had he used a spade or some other household item that happened to be handy?
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Postby Moon » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:38 pm

Let's try and stay on topic in the serious forums....OK guys.
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Hatamoto
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Postby Hatamoto » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:44 pm

I tend to keep a bokken (or at least a wooden kodachi) under the stairs (few feet away from my front door) for no real reason, really, except easy to get to when I wanna take em over James's, but I do feel a little better to know if some chav, or something, tries bashing down the door (we're not popular here for some reason, my brother keeps getting his car damaged and the house is stoned etc) I can have something at hand if they wanna go at it. Narrow hall as well, which is lucky really, less room to be outnumbered. Can bop them one by one :D lol

But as for that guy I can only assume he had it just lying around near the door. I don't blame him for using it (against a gun who has time to think, between shitting yourself and crying like a girl? lol), but it sounds like it was within arm's reach or something.

Ah bugger, forgot what else I was gonna say..
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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:10 pm

Hatamoto wrote: against a gun who has time to think


Apparently not TKD 5th dans. I don't actually keep anything lying about as weapons, though I am aware of what could be improvised with if the situation demanded it.
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