Grading in various martial arts

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sprout
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Postby sprout » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:03 am

Is this the case in any other styles, or are our examiners just sadistic?


You arent alone, our physical exams have people passing out, throwing up etc. Fun eh 8)
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darkhobo
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Postby darkhobo » Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:12 am

We dont have a physical exam, just our warm up before each class, which can be fun. It varies in extreme depending. Sometimes he will want to get started on something and just do a quick warm up, sometimes he will walk in and say that we are all out of shape and we will do an hour long warm up. Worst was when he told us all to get into a horse stance (or sitting stance) and not to raise even the slightest and that he would be right back. He didnt come back for a good 25 mins, I wanted to cry.
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Postby Lexxorcist » Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:19 am

We don't have physical exams, but being pushed to our limit beforehand is part of the gradings. Some of our lessons are exorcise lessons, but we're rarely informed about them as half the class don't turn up if they know in advance.
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Postby Frodocious » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:15 pm

darkhobo wrote:What I believe he meant wasn't that you can't learn certain things until certain rank. Only that the first belts are more like learning vocab, and then once you reach your higher belts you are ready to fully understand how to use what you have learned.


Yes, this is how I (and many others in my art) view the belt system. In the kyu grades you are provided with a lot of information (are given the dictionary) and when you get to dan grades you learn how to apply this information to real life (write essays) taking the relevant bits for the situation you find yourself in.
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Postby wtf? » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:37 pm

Frodocious wrote:
darkhobo wrote:What I believe he meant wasn't that you can't learn certain things until certain rank. Only that the first belts are more like learning vocab, and then once you reach your higher belts you are ready to fully understand how to use what you have learned.


Yes, this is how I (and many others in my art) view the belt system. In the kyu grades you are provided with a lot of information (are given the dictionary) and when you get to dan grades you learn how to apply this information to real life (write essays) taking the relevant bits for the situation you find yourself in.


the reason i dont like this approach is that you have to reach a certain level before your training becomes as effective as it SHOULD be.

taking this approach when marked next to someone who gets all the info first. student 1 would only BEGIN to train after (lets say) 5 years of training, after a black belt.

student 2 would have 5 years of training in everything. regardless of rank. i know who would be better prepared for real applications, and who id rahter have fighting my corner.
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Postby Lexxorcist » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:55 pm

In my experience, it isn't a case of not learning to use what you've been taught until you reach first dan, it's a matter of having to demonstrate you understand and can use it effectively. From 1st dan onwards it's about perfecting and improving your skills.
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Postby Frodocious » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:58 pm

wtf? wrote:the reason i dont like this approach is that you have to reach a certain level before your training becomes as effective as it SHOULD be.

taking this approach when marked next to someone who gets all the info first. student 1 would only BEGIN to train after (lets say) 5 years of training, after a black belt.

student 2 would have 5 years of training in everything. regardless of rank. i know who would be better prepared for real applications, and who id rahter have fighting my corner.


In practice though, even though the theory is that the kyu grade are the vocabulary learning stage, the more you learn, the more you see how to combine what you have learnt (speak the language). So in reality you get a good overview of the art (student 1) whilst learning useful and practical techniques (student 2)
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Postby wtf? » Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:59 pm

Frodocious wrote:
wtf? wrote:the reason i dont like this approach is that you have to reach a certain level before your training becomes as effective as it SHOULD be.

taking this approach when marked next to someone who gets all the info first. student 1 would only BEGIN to train after (lets say) 5 years of training, after a black belt.

student 2 would have 5 years of training in everything. regardless of rank. i know who would be better prepared for real applications, and who id rahter have fighting my corner.


In practice though, even though the theory is that the kyu grade are the vocabulary learning stage, the more you learn, the more you see how to combine what you have learnt (speak the language). So in reality you get a good overview of the art (student 1) whilst learning useful and practical techniques (student 2)


yeah, but learning withouth knowing the full facts means thats your just learning principles. and while thats usefull, when you add it to the context of street combat, you'll see that principle isnt what counts.

witholding some information, or technique because a certain grade hasnt been achieved is suicidal, and generally stupid, from a self defence/combat point of view. you need everything you can straight away. you shouldnt have to wait till black belt or whatever to make some of the previous training viable.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Postby Frodocious » Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:52 pm

I agree with you, but there has to be a limit on the amount of stuff you teach someone in 1 go. A new student would be totally overfaced if presented with all the information at the beginning of their training.

So although an awful lot is covered in our kyu grades, certain concepts and information are not stressed until later on. Its not so much that the information isn't given out, its more that the stress is on other aspects. And in some cases the techniques are taught to the lower grades but the principles are clarified later.

There is also the progressive element, in that you can't learn technique D until you are proficient in techniques A, B and C.
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Postby sprout » Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:49 pm

moreover if it is progressive, the principles supplying the technique of A should support the understanding of B etc...

edit: hasty typing mistakes tut tut...
Last edited by sprout on Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby wtf? » Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:35 pm

sprout wrote:moreover if it is progressive, the principles supply the technique in A should cupport the understanding of B etc.


exactly.. so learning is progressive. the idea that certain parts or greater understandings are witheld is against that knowlege.

every technique links to every other technique in some way. thats what makes martial arts work. fluid movements from one to the next. witholding certain techniques or idea's could hinder that process.

im not saying dump everything on a student at 1 time. im saying that nothing should be witheld on the basis that the student isnt good enough, or hasnt gained the correct knowlege. weapons skill is the best way to argue it.
i know many dojo that withod weapons training because they feel that untill you get to 'this' grade, you arnt allowed to wield a knife, or batton. as such it takes a student many years to even begin that training. and he's gonna lack against a person trained from day 1.

now this isnt to say that a begining student should be allowed to wield a knife. its saying that with carefull instruction, a student can become proficient in knife basics in a year, and move onto live work within another few.

now this is saying that experience needs to be gained. so in a way its the same as a belt system. point is... its not based on the persons belt colour, its based on their personal achievements, and skill.

i know plenty of black belts that shouldnt be ever allowed a knife... ever. let alone training with one... and as such their not allowed. others are free to use them after a relitively short while as experience is based on experience, not belts achieved.

i personally believe that most dojo that use such things (im refering to mostly McDojo, here) use it as a way to keep students. cus all the wannabe's WILL stick around if they can gleam the sensei's ultimate death touch X-Treme, or ninja knife skill of pointy-painfull-death.... hand love... invisibility... and... death, and... ouchy-ness.

you get the point.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Postby sprout » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:12 pm

blah blah, wraiths stuff is the sh*t (K)

So if the student is comfortable with learning it, and so on, they should continue up to the point where it gets tricky, then be left to get better at it. Then once thats learnt, or has been practiced enough times, then the learning continues. ?This question mark is because I'm not sure if you would agree with that. Hopefully its a simplification.
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Postby wtf? » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:42 pm

sprout wrote:blah blah, wraiths stuff is the sh*t (K)

So if the student is comfortable with learning it, and so on, they should continue up to the point where it gets tricky, then be left to get better at it. Then once thats learnt, or has been practiced enough times, then the learning continues. ?This question mark is because I'm not sure if you would agree with that. Hopefully its a simplification.


yeah, thats about right. the variation on this is to have the instructor have those boundries, but be more than prepared to ignore them, should a student show the right state of mind, or skill.

1 person will have issues learning the most basic of techniques, or idea's, while another will pick them up after a relitively short amount of time. each person is judged by their own merits. not grouped together via belt colour, and expected skill level.... i mean, my instructor could put on a white belt, and go to another class. he would be just as capable as learning advanced technique regardless of belt colour. and any white belt on earth can have a knack for a given set of movements, or idea's even if they have never set foot in a dojo. id hate to limit such students based on the amount of time they had trained, or the amount of cash spent working his way through coloured dye.

so yeah... each student is graded (per-se) every lesson, and the training reflects the students skill, regardless of anything else. its not as much hastle as you'd imagine. you tend to remember the good students anyway.... and after a short amount of time, you dont even need to pay any extra attention. he'll make himself known by conversations, and not bothering you 24/7 to ask which leg goes forward in a left leg, bridging kick.
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God i LOVE these things.



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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Postby darkhobo » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:46 am

He doesn't hide information about skills until certain levels. He won't hide anything from us. with the exeption of some advanced katas he wont show us unless we show an interest in them (such as weapon katas, if you show an interest in staff and learn one of the beginner forms, once it is good enough for his liking he may show you a new one). He was simply saying that you can't expect someone new in the arts so be able to effectivly use them. Though they may know all the throws you won't see them just start throwing people around on the street. It takes time. He just stated a fact, the belts count down to 1 then back up, implying they are originally in the negetives, and you have to work your way out. Once you are in the positives you can start to expect your martial arts to truely be effective.
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Postby Steve Ishikawa » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:32 am

Lexxorcist wrote:What about her grading card, did they sign that, because I've always thught the certificates are really something for kids parents to stick on their fridges. It's my understaning the grade is only recognised if your grading record card has been signed by an examiner. You did the right thing finding her a new dojo in my opinion. Telling someone they're unworthy of a belt but giving them it anyway just sounds crazy. Then again, how old is she, because if these are the junior 9th kyu gradings, they're not really that important.


I'm not sure about their grade book, but if they didn't get the certificate I can't imagine them signing it for them. And they were Juniors, but it wasn't a junior class. When myself and a few friends were there it was a serious thing - then little sprog-chav's started showing up and we decided to move on. But even though the were juniors with the knowlege and understanding of, probably, a 9th kyu grade - it's still pretty important for them to achieve the next kyu, as opposed of just being given the belt - it's all false hope and confidence in my opinion.


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