Aliveness in training

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sprout
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Aliveness in training

Postby sprout » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:39 pm

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wtf? wrote:like looking for mensa candidates in a jerry springer trailor park

don't click this link...

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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:51 pm

very good video. its what makes training combat related, not just dancing in the street. nice find, and good explanation.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Postby Tempest UK » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:10 pm

Good video (H)
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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:16 pm

i should add, as well... just 'cause i can. that this is another good reason why training alone, in your back garden with a book, or DVD doesnt produce reasults.
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God i LOVE these things.



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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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sprout
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Postby sprout » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:30 pm

amen brother.
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wtf? wrote:like looking for mensa candidates in a jerry springer trailor park


don't click this link...

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Postby Caladras » Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:09 pm

Excellent video mate, really good watch.

Also one of the reasons why I like kick-boxing, although a lot of fights end up on the floor on the street, sparring does have a lot of the "aliveness" that they were talking about there, as it's more like a competition rather than drills.

Cal
You know the saying, "i'm not angry, i'm just disappointed?" well that doesn't bother me because you don't say, "there's a man running towards you with an axe and he's really disappointed!"

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Postby Morbeus » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:26 pm

Just a newbies opinion here, but while I can see that aliveness is a critical part of training I think 'dead' training still has some use. For example as a way to memorise exactly how you need to lock/throw/pin etc somebody and getting that right before then using it in 'alive' training.
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Postby wtf? » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:48 pm

aliveness is only usefull if you know what your training in. its not meant to mean that you just flail about.... it means that when you train in something your compitent in, you should upgrade your existing training to include something more than you have been.

in this case.... realistic training.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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strett_uk
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Postby strett_uk » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:19 pm

when it comes to training or any form of learning it really depends on the individual, there is no worng way or right way in general, whats wrong for one person maybe the only way for someone else.

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Postby wtf? » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:04 am

well... in the context of combat... there kinda is a right way.

and the way you know theres a right way, is that theres a wrong way. training in a 'dead' way will get you walked over in any arena. and as such (in a combat context) is the wrong way to train...

aliveness is a way to counter that. and while people vary, the principles dont. training the one armed man (TQD, and karate people, im looking at you) and the Mr Stretch (again... looking at the above people) along with mr overcompensation, arms of steel, and dead training is the wrong way to learn a martial art. a martial art being a combat art by its very nature.

for those curious.... the one armed man....
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notice how one hand is attacking... very much as you'd expect... while the other is resting politely on their hip. not covering the face, or flailing in as a street attacker would... but quietly waiting.

ive seen MANY dojo, if not ALL karate dojo show defences where 1 armed man strikes, and then waits... other hand in limbo, while the defence is carried out... 'dead' describes the techniques quite well. the pic is of kids, but this is even more stunning... at such a young age, their being shown the WRONG way to train.

theres also an adult version...
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which also shows 'arms of steel'
this is also done with knives, and the famous X-Block... the best way to describe why the above is bad is with a slightly altered pic....
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if they had normal human limbs, the wrist would bend at the circle, and reasulting movement would cause 'arrow' movement, and bleeding... possibly death. the X-Block is also a good one. normally a defence from a knife... but in this case... a kick...
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now... the kick is to the face i assume. traveling forward and slightly upwards at that point in the pics... now... if that block was used, and the kick moved forward... where would the foot end up?
thats right... in his face.

also notice how the kicks are actually not going to contact. for the xblock to be made redundant in this case, all thats needed is to step back, unless their playing with mr stretch, in which case they just need to stand there.

with the knife thing they always stop a 5 or 6inch blade, and do it really well.... thing is, if a blade is 1 inch too long, there a gonner.

this is all assuming the blocks dont crumble under all that pressure. i honest to god saw this defence against a downward swing with a baseball bat. can you say 'shattered forearms'?

this goes to mr stretch...
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tell me... at which point is that yound lady in any trouble from a strike... being that it finishes about 5 inches away from her face... also, notice that the body is down, and the power is up. thats 2 conflicting forces in a strike. doing nothing would do the same thing in this case. same here....
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so you would have to grow in these cases... or just stretch.

we also have mr overcompensation...

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in this case... a 6ft high kick on a 5 1/2 foot woman. quite pointless... also notice the nuts just begging to get hit.


all of these guys arnt random 1-offs. ive seen this all first hand so i wont hear ony 'well.. thats just a few pics' because its a example of something ive seen with my own eyes... hundreds of times walking past other arts in the hall next to mine.

so.....
when it comes to training or any form of learning it really depends on the individual, there is no worng way or right way in general, whats wrong for one person maybe the only way for someone else.


thats not right....

martial arts by their very definition are combat arts. millitary arts for unarmed fighting. and as such there very much IS a wrong way... and indeed a right way to learn, or teach.
there may on the other hand be a wrong way for a certain person to be given that info. some require soft nudging, some require 1000press-ups before your allowed to get on the mat for warm up. that doesnt mean that theres a right and wrong way to train... ie... alive or dead... it means people learn in different ways.

WHAT they learn can be wrong, and right.

if your talking sports etc... then thats something i dont comment, or take part in.
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God i LOVE these things.



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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:34 am

When you're learning basic techniques in karate you pull the hand back like that to exagerate the movements, same as using long stances. You don't do it in free fighting, at least non that I've seen. In those first pictures, as you block with one arm you pull the other back ready to counter with a full reverse punch. That's what it looks like they're doing to me anyway, like they're practicing basic moves with partners.
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Postby Hatamoto » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:49 am

Great pics, mate, good examples of things that have bothered me for a good while.
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Postby wtf? » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:59 am

basic techniques are th cornerstone of martial arts.to learn those correctly is paramount. also, as their basic ie... the first techniques you learn, their the ones you will spend most time on.

proper attitude should be maintained... or better still, instilled into the start of any training. the 1 armed man especially is dangerous. from day 1 your tought that your hand is at your waist. the one place its almost completely useless. when matched against a boxers stance, it leaves the face open to attack, and the hand too far away from anything to matter. and this is the FIRST thing your tought.

training in 1 way, then changing it in such a drastic way is counter productive. if the hand is meant to be up... why would you EVER train it to be down?
same with the stances... if their never meant to be so wide... why train your body that way?

the basic techniques will change.
things will get added, or taken away,
but the underlying principles MUST be the same....

in a defensive situation, your hands MUST be up, whatever technique your going to use. training them not to be, for any reason is suicide.... and thats just going on the 2 things you pointed out... theres a lot more wrong in those pics.

so i still think that such things are the wrong way to train a martial art. you can (and i know this to be "cast in stone", true) train the same combat techniques with hands up, and be more effective.
so given the choise, which would you rather do (combat perspective) hands near your waist? pointless, and too far away to help? only protecting an area that is well protected to start with, and an unlikely targtet in a street fight?

or covering your face (a much more likely target), and a clear 18inches closer to YOUR most likely target? plus still capable of defending the same place as the other hand, by simply dropping the elbow a few inches?

i know which way id rather train in a combative art.

(wow... long post just to go over my original point... sorry lex 8) )
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God i LOVE these things.



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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:20 am

It's how you learn the correct tequnique and I've never known anyone confused by it during free fighting. Free fighting also starts on day one. If you look at your first picture (or the second one as those kids don't appear to be using their hips much), the person is blocking a head punch, and during this they turn their hips and pull the other fist back in preperation for the counter. A full punch from that position gives it more power. It's also done to help learn correct technique. Remember that's not a fighting stance - the hand would have been pulled back during the block. Generally, every block is followed by an attack. Here's some info I found rather than me rambling on.

Applying the Chamber and Twist

Mastering the chamber position and the wrist twist is crucial to achieving correct hand technique. Make sure your arm and hand are held in the correct chamber position for the technique. The twist at the end of the strike is also extremely important since it helps generate explosive power at the point of impact. Because almost all Karate hand and arm techniques, including strikes and blocks, require a twist at the end, it is an important part of the technique to practice.

Adopting the Strike/Pull Technique

To generate more power, instead of simply striking forward with your striking hand, you can also pull back with your nonstriking hand. This strike/pull technique helps you put your entire body behind a hand strike. Assume a comfortable fighting stance and chamber both hands at your waist. Reach forward slightly with your nonstriking hand (which should be made into a fist). As you strike with your striking hand, pull your outstretched nonstriking hand back to your side, returning it to the chamber position with the palm up. Leave your striking hand out in front. Then strike forward with your back hand, pulling your front hand to your side as you do so. With some repetition, this will come naturally and will improve the power of your strikes. It’s also a skill that can be built on later. For instance, you may reach forward and grab your opponent with your back hand, pulling him or her toward you as you strike forward. This increases the impact of the technique.
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sprout
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Postby sprout » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:28 am

A full punch from that position gives it more power


You dont need to chamber a punch to that extreme to get power, boxers seem to do alright dont they? What about the one inch punch from ye olde Wing Chun?
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wtf? wrote:like looking for mensa candidates in a jerry springer trailor park


don't click this link...


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