Aliveness in training

A forum for discussion on all things related to the martial-arts and oriental sword-arts

Moderators: Big Lazy, Moderators

User avatar
Lexxorcist
Posts: 1173
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Postby Lexxorcist » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:57 am

darkhobo wrote:
Lexxorcist wrote:why, when you have that extra split second to pull your fist back a few inches further to add significant power.... why wouldn't you?

Because that is what I watch for when fighting. That first movement backwards is when I make my move. Your few inches back also causes the need for a few more inches foward. If I can react fast enough most of the time from a normal punch without the backwards movement I would love to see what I can do with someone taking their sweet time to generate all that extra power just to hit nothing.
That is my main problem with it. There are better and much faster ways to do it. Ways that if done right can also actually speed to process of the strike.


Lexxorcist wrote:
why, when you have that extra split second to pull your fist back a few inches further to add significant power.... why wouldn't you?



For gods sake man, I said WHEN you have the opportunity, when you've given yourself that extra split second - usually by using shorter, faster techniques. You're not reading my posts. There are various ways to generate power that are combined, and that is one of them (one that you choose never to use - which is your choice). If I thought you'd see it coming or have time to avoid it, the opportunity wouldn't be there, and if you bothered to read my posts properly you'd already know that. I've now addressed this repeatedly in the thread and you seem to have missed it every time, which makes me wonder about your observational skills.

I would use anything that might give me an advantage if the chance was there. In my opinion it would be remiss to do otherwise. Each to their own I guess.

**Edit** ________________________________________

Back on topic now, regarding elements like kata being 'dead'. Fluent reading and writing begins with learning the alphabet - your ABC, sounding out and learning to draw the letters. How many words begin with Abc?

You learn music from scales, yet the result can be anything from rock, to classical to jazz.

Does this mean the alphabet and musical scales are 'dead'?

Regarding the Mac Dojos, think of your favourite song in the world. Now imagine it being covered by loads of dreadful club bands all over the world. The results can often be offensive and laughable, and some may destroy them even more by adding their own 'twists' which just don't work - but it's the same song.

Q) Can katas evolve?

A)

The techniques in the kata have evolved from and have been tested in actual combat. In this way each kata has been improved and refined, and has evolved into the kata we practice today. The kata's complex evolution it is hard to trace, but it is known that they are based on combative techniques


Kata cannot be used as a substitue for 'aliveness' in a dojo (and isn't), but it can be effectively used with it. Spontanious free fighting is, of course, also essential for it to have any practical use, but some time practicing basic moves and kata is also valuable, assuming it's taught correctly. Extending lines, and having the means to fully maximise the power of techniques can also be useful. You may choose not to use certain techniques - but it doesn't mean they're useless. Notice I haven't criticised any other style of fighting in this thread, because I don't have a deep understanding of other styles, and have never tried them.
Image

User avatar
darkhobo
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:19 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Postby darkhobo » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:02 am

I'm just saying that no good opponant should ever let you take your time throwing a strike. If someone is letting you take your time to gain more power in a strike then he more then deserves to get the sh*t knocked out of him. I weight 245 lbs and am far from fast and even I have enough time to take one step out of the way from punches. Only time I could see this happening is if you put your opponant in a lock (most of which have much better things to do from then a reverse punch). If you could give an example of a time when this is possible it would help greatly for me to understand what situations you are talking about, I re-read most of your posts and couldn't find any named times.
Mos wrote:Americans :roll:

Mos wrote:ill say it again Americans

Simoriax wrote:well what do you know, i love americans! :)

User avatar
Lexxorcist
Posts: 1173
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Postby Lexxorcist » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:42 am

darkholio wrote:

If you could give an example of a time when this is possible it would help greatly for me to understand what situations you are talking about, I re-read most of your posts and couldn't find any named times.


Lexxorcist wrote:

There's a trade-off between speed and power and there's only some occasions where it's 'safe' to make such a big punch. Usually when your opponent has just hit the deck or is otherwise rocked.



I'm not talking about being allowed to take my time (although that would be nice :D), I'm talking about creating an opportunity, which is often what the shorter techniques are a prelude to. That's all I should really need to explain I would have thought, but if you want an example, immediately after a take down you often have the time. Perhaps after breaking someones nose or dazing them with a good jab. You have to use your judgement at the time of course, and it's near impossible to give you an example of one specific way of creating the opportunity on any given opponent. Any number of things can lead to your opponents attention being off you for a moment, including deception. Ideally you should always be aware of what they're doing, but in reality, following an eye gouge, groin kick, damaging kick to the knee, good jab to the throat or a dizzying jab to the head, you may find you lose focus for a moment, and that moment is all that's required. As well as watching for attacks, I also look for chances to dispatch the the opponent decisively.



I've tried to find a graphic example and the best I can find is this kyokushin clip. This is tournament fighting and it's not my style. They're not allowed to punch to the head, :| but watch what happens after the one guy hits the deck.

I'm sorry it's not a great example, and if I find a better one I'll post it for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMMUpYsvR9c&NR
Image

User avatar
sprout
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:37 pm
Contact:

Postby sprout » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:43 pm

Yea Lexx, that video does show an example of when you would have that advantage to take your time and fire a big punch or whatever.. Can't say I'm that mpressed by the fighting in general though, I know its not the point of the video.
Image
wtf? wrote:like looking for mensa candidates in a jerry springer trailor park

don't click this link...

User avatar
Lexxorcist
Posts: 1173
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Postby Lexxorcist » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:58 pm

sprout wrote:Yea Lexx, that video does show an example of when you would have that advantage to take your time and fire a big punch or whatever.. Can't say I'm that mpressed by the fighting in general though, I know its not the point of the video.


I agree regarding the style, but the reason it looks so bad may be because they're not allowed head shots. I can only imagine it's to keep it bare fist and keep the pace up for the audience, and for safety. Even though it's only a competition rule, I wouldn't want to train like that.

This is a kyokushin offshoot (so it says anyway) combined with grappling. I don't think much of the space suits but it looks like fun. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jkez4CjfWk&mode=related&search=
Image

User avatar
darkhobo
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:19 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Postby darkhobo » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:47 pm

Lexxorcist wrote:This is a kyokushin offshoot (so it says anyway) combined with grappling. I don't think much of the space suits but it looks like fun. :D

Feel the same way.
In the first video, was your example about 1:15 into it? after he takes him down and pulls his fist to his waist?
If it is I suppose thats just where our arts differ. In Kempo Jujutsu that probly would have been an immidiate side mount or a knee-on-stomach ((or ribs) which hurts unbelievably). Though I do see where if you wanted to there you could have brought your hand back to your waist unless your partner was quick and knew how to grapple, which is unlikely in a street fight.
Mos wrote:Americans :roll:

Mos wrote:ill say it again Americans

Simoriax wrote:well what do you know, i love americans! :)

User avatar
Lexxorcist
Posts: 1173
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Postby Lexxorcist » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:41 pm

Yes, about 1:15 in. That's not the only situation it might be used, but it's where you're most likely to see it. If you don't rely so much on finishing off quickly with strikes, I can understand that extra power being neither here nor there to you. We do have a fair bit of jujitsu as the style was founded by Hironori Ohtsuka, who ran the Shinto-Yoshin-ryu school of jujitsu before meeting Gichin Funakoshi, being very impressed with his Okinawan karate, and combining the two. However his style of jujitsu was more striking oriented. So we have take downs, joint manipulation and throws, but nothing I'd describe as ground work.

In my own experience of real fights, I only recall fully chambering a punch like that once, but it's main value to me is in how it helps improve over-all technique in both long and short reverse punches. At the end of the day, if we're both happy with our styles, and they seem to work for us, that's what matters. :D
Image

User avatar
darkhobo
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:19 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Postby darkhobo » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:58 pm

Agreed. (K)
Mos wrote:Americans :roll:

Mos wrote:ill say it again Americans

Simoriax wrote:well what do you know, i love americans! :)

User avatar
wtf?
Posts: 1586
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:31 am

Postby wtf? » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:07 am

darkhobo wrote:Agreed. (K)


HOLD on everyone... i completely dissagree with everything said here and im going to.... ah, who am i kidding. you two come and giv uz a kiss! its all over now, we can breathe easy.
Image
God i LOVE these things.

Image

Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

User avatar
Lexxorcist
Posts: 1173
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Postby Lexxorcist » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:24 am

Ok, but not tounges. ;) Well it's been enjoyable and quite constructive, and I think we all did well to manage 4 pages on this topic and keep it friendly and constructive, so many thanks to all. :)
Image

User avatar
sprout
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:37 pm
Contact:

Postby sprout » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:42 pm

Its been fun, lets do this again sometime. *looks at forum* (H)
Image

wtf? wrote:like looking for mensa candidates in a jerry springer trailor park


don't click this link...

User avatar
Lexxorcist
Posts: 1173
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Postby Lexxorcist » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:49 pm

sprout wrote:Its been fun, lets do this again sometime. *looks at forum* (H)


And why not? :twisted: It's healthy to have your methods challenged, but let's give it a week or two.... or ten lol
Image

User avatar
Moon
Posts: 2851
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:57 pm
Location: In orbit

Postby Moon » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:38 am

Lexxorcist wrote:
sprout wrote:Its been fun, lets do this again sometime. *looks at forum* (H)


And why not? :twisted: It's healthy to have your methods challenged, but let's give it a week or two.... or ten lol


What a refreshing change...a discussion on martial arts without some plonker,who knows nothing,putting his oar in and starting a flame!!

Nice one lads. :D
"Wise men speak because they have something to say: fools because they have to say something"...Plato

User avatar
Hatamoto
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:04 pm
Location: Abercynon, South Wales
Contact:

Postby Hatamoto » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:27 am

Aye, it is very refreshing. I lost track sometime down the second or third page, I think lol, too much karate talk for me, but I'm always grateful to know people who can discuss things passionately without letting things get out of hand :)

Mon hats off to both of thee :)
Wraith wrote:my tits are fantastic, you little bastard!


Return to “Fudoshin Dojo”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest