Aliveness in training

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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:07 am

plus, the idea of chambering a punch, or to put it another way... telegraphing it, is silly.

ive seen all this confused MANY times. there was a also a story from american news. i'll see if i can find it.
basicly there was a riot during a karate tournament. 2 schools went at it, and things escalated. the silly thing was... out of about 150 exponents... there was 1 bleeding nose, and thats IT! the reason?.... it was a sports gathering... the people involved had been training so much to just score points, that they automaticly held back, just as they were trained to do.

i'll see if i cant get the original story, and some more details.

anywho... as sprout has said... you dont NEED to chamber a punch to generate power. boxing, and wing chun are very good examples. boxers wear 16oz gloves, which give quitea bit of protection, and can STILL knock out opponents without preparing a strike.

also... think of the practicalitys. to puch effectively based on that little exert you gave.. you would have to bring the hand away from your face, show someone your going to strike, then make it travel the extra 18inches to someones face. i could hapily put out 2 strikes with good power in the time it takes to do that.

i dont really care how many instructors or anything i speak too... its the wrong way to train a combat art. the hand should never be shown to be away from the jawline... protecting your face, and in a position to move to protect anywhere on the upper body.

adrenaline does strange things to people. i remember 4 fights ive seen where someone has struck a pose, or tried to hit by chambering their strikes. no power was gained because you cant really chamber a strike when you've just been put on your ass. lol
boxers, self defence classes, real combat arts, millitary exponents ALL say the same thing. the only arts where ive seen this are karate, and TQD... both are equally bad (TQD being the worse of the 2 in my opinion)

but all this isnt a karate bashing post. its still saying that there ARE wrong ways to train. and things like training your hand to retract to your hip[ is wrong. and you say that its just for beginers....

i remember seeing a kata done by some black belts... in all fairness, they were all in sync, and looked proficient at what they did... but in the 1 kata i saw, they placed their hands on their hips 5 times to strike... so i dont know about what you've said.
as i understand kata... their meant to be a set way to train set idea's. in this case, and im happy to say... many others... high ranking karate exponents are chambering strikes, when they shouldnt, or dont need too.

power is generated with the hips... so how does it help that your ARM travels more? thats a pretty steep learning curve. the floating punch can generatemassive power in a few inches. boxers can do it through pads, at their jawline, as can *I*... so what exactly is the point?

Here's some info I found rather than me rambling on.


unlucky for you mate... i love to babble on, and no such quotes to be found 8)
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

Morbeus
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Postby Morbeus » Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:15 am

wtf does make very valid points about how harmful this type of 'dead' training can be, but still it should be pointed out that not all 'dead' training is necessarily teaching you to leave one hand redundant.

As long as the correct techniques are taught in 'dead' training and it is followed up by 'alive' training that puts it into practise I can't see anything wrong with it. The "One armed man" and "Mr Stretch" are very good examples of how not to train but you can still train 'dead' without these necessarily being taught.

At the end of the day it depends on the instructor.
Expect the unexpected and the expected will take you by surprise.

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Postby Hatamoto » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:40 pm

I haven't advanced ni any martial art yet, but I figure it's like sculpting, or something. I only just woke up so I'm sorry of this is just tripe. But when you start your training, you have limitations in the wya you train, specific techniques, go slowly, pull punches, etc. As you advance through the techniques and get more confident you can chip away at the excess, make things faster, move more, and stuff.

I find it funny that a karate guy I know and myself had a sort of spar bit (for exercise, more than anything, since I don't currently do anything), so I get in this stance similar to the JKD (right fist at the jaw, left elbow near the body, left hand lower on the body), and start bouncing a little bit a la boxing. The karate guy? Think Muhammad Ali :p He starts bloody bouncing all around me lol, and he's a fast light little bugger, too. Then as I was turning to face him as he passed me, he'd snap out this mid height kick and catch my exposed side. With no small amount of power, I might add. He's 16, as well, I was impressed.

The reason I find it funny is because I held karate as something so rigid and limited, yet here was this guy, karate for something like two years, and when it comes to sparring, he adopts more of a boxing stance, and if that was him pulling the punch, I'm afraid of what he'd do if he wasn't.

I share this story to demonstrate that it's up to the individual how to USE the karate. James is another example, does tae kwon do, but we spar a fair bit, so he's not stuck in just doing the kata, etc, he can find out what techniques are gonna get him killed on the street.

It's probably a good idea if that's possible, to spar with friends outside of the dojo, try out some techniques in a freestyle sense. Learn by doing, and stuffs.
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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:03 pm

Morbeus wrote:wtf does make very valid points about how harmful this type of 'dead' training can be, but still it should be pointed out that not all 'dead' training is necessarily teaching you to leave one hand redundant.

As long as the correct techniques are taught in 'dead' training and it is followed up by 'alive' training that puts it into practise I can't see anything wrong with it. The "One armed man" and "Mr Stretch" are very good examples of how not to train but you can still train 'dead' without these necessarily being taught.

At the end of the day it depends on the instructor.


oh yeah... like i said in the first place you have to have something to train in, before you can train 'alive'

for a simple example, if you have learnt a 'dead' double leg takedown, and have the technical aspects down, then you can advance in training... in this case... to something a bit more 'alive' and when you progress in your given art... things like full fighting, and NHB type stuff.

so Morbeus is right... dead training has its place, but only a very limited one. its a starting point, not a way to train for life.

hatamoto


see... theres my point. the effectiveness came when your friend dropped his stances, and positions, and adopted a more effective approach. with this being the case, why is it important that he learns them in the first place?

take a karate blow... a straight punch (lets say) from the rear hand. the punch can deliver the same power from the hip, or the jawline (boxer stance) its also more protective in a boxer stance.

karate people in a free fight use this boxing stance, or something similar. their original training is cast aside for more productive methods.

i can teach a straight punch from a boxing stance, where its more versatile, and productive... so the question is... why would i teach an inferior position when i have every intention of loosing it when the time came?

the only answer ive ever been able to get is 'its traditional'

which leads to the most important question here... will tradition stop a punch?.... no! so what purpose does it serve to a millitary art..... none what-so-ever!

which leads to Martial Art vs Sport Art vs Art for the sake of hobby (which is tantamount to dance) i believe karate to be the last one (although i know there to be exceptions)
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Postby Hatamoto » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:14 pm

Karate was formed as an effective martial art, I know it's been kinda bastardised now, but is there no style of it (I know there are as many as there are religions :p) that upholds the traditional effectiveness?
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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:24 pm

possibly, but its down to the instructors.

those that do hold true to the idea of combat effectiveness, hold true to the ideas that are hundreds of years old. what was true then, might not be now. and theres also social factors to take into consideration.

for answers to that question, you'd have to try every karate school on earth.

there are karate people who are highly skilled as combat artists... but most would say 'thats not karate'

.........go figure!
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Hatamoto
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Postby Hatamoto » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:58 pm

I guess it shows what people know of karate when they pronounce it kuh RAH tee.
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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:11 pm

anywho... as sprout has said... you dont NEED to chamber a punch to generate power. boxing, and wing chun are very good examples. boxers wear 16oz gloves, which give quitea bit of protection, and can STILL knock out opponents without preparing a strike.

also... think of the practicalitys. to puch effectively based on that little exert you gave.. you would have to bring the hand away from your face, show someone your going to strike, then make it travel the extra 18inches to someones face. i could hapily put out 2 strikes with good power in the time it takes to do that.

i dont really care how many instructors or anything i speak too... its the wrong way to train a combat art. the hand should never be shown to be away from the jawline... protecting your face, and in a position to move to protect anywhere on the upper body.


First of all, the reverse punch is only one punch used in karate. It's often used as a decicive punch. Jabs, backfists and hooks are among others used. Also the positions in this photo...
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... would only be held like that for demonstration or for the sensei's inspection (to make sure the block was effective, the stances are correct, they are not over-extending, they have tight fists and are hitting with the right part of their fists etc). You can see there the kids block would have covered his whole head, but if it didn't it'd be easy to see and easy to show him from holding that position.

Practicing full reverse punches makes shorter ones easy, the same way longer stances make shorter ones feel easy in in free fighting. As for high kicks, they're make lower kicks easier. You train with them but aren't encouraged to use them in real fights. (I'm sure I've said that before somewhere).

In the picture, as the boy blocks to the head with his left arm, he would bring his right arm down, covering his lower body, and back to that chambered position (in my style anyway). He'd also turn his hip into the block, adding his body to it, and then would be set up to return with a full back punch accompanied by a full hip movement putting all his body into it. If he chose to counter with a roundhouse off his right leg his right arm would come up to cover his head area durting the kick. Basically it's over-extended for the reason I've given, and it's teaching the habit of using one move to set up the next. You don't just block then do nothing.

This quote covers the free fighting stance
A free fighting stance is any stance the karateka desires to use when free fighting. The karateka wants to minimize the exposed area that faces their opponent


The cross block you showed being used on a head kick pushes away or upwards. It may not be the best defense in that situation, but for the purposed of demonstrating the block it doesn't really matter, and it does work.

During free fighting you 'never let your guard down'. Typically your front arm guards the upper body and head, the back hand covers the lower body.

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tell me... at which point is that yound lady in any trouble from a strike... being that it finishes about 5 inches away from her face


I don't know what style that is and aren't defending it as I've not seen the accompanying text, but how can you tell it's demonstating an effective punch from the male, rather than an effective evasion from the female? she could have leaned back while raising her leg in preperationg to use an inner block and bring her heel down on his head. I can't tell that from this still photo. He could even be demonstrating the need for gettting your distance right. Or, the kick (causing her to move her head back) could have been executed at the same time as the punch, taking her head out of range. (Edit: it does actually look like a side kick, so ignore the possible axe kick suggestion)

Jiust to return to an earlier point
also... think of the practicalitys. to puch effectively based on that little exert you gave.. you would have to bring the hand away from your face, show someone your going to strike, then make it travel the extra 18inches to someones face. i could hapily put out 2 strikes with good power in the time it takes to do that.


No need to repeat the reason for exagerating moves while practicing basic techniques, but the arm that was guarding his face just sucessfully blocked a punch to his face. The preperation for a counter was incorperated into that block, and he would also have covered his body while bringing his right hand back. In a real fight it wouldn't be pulled back that far unless, say, the guy was down and you had the luxury of finishing him off with a good 'en. During training you tire and your arms tend to lower, your stances get smaller, your knees straighten, and extending things builds the strength required for this not to happen. Full punches are also important in training as they also extend the line of the punch, which does improve technique in shorter punches. One thing you're taught is to make the reverse punch straight, and not let your elbow go out or your shoulder jump up. This is partly to reduce telegraphing.

Having said this I'm not defending every karate dojo on the planet. I've seen some dire video of both basic training and kumite. Some styles incorperate training methods that don't make sense to me, and if they were used in my dojo I'd want a damn good explanation. Nothing I've learnt personally doesn't make sense to me though, or I'd go somewhere else.

I know I don't have a hope in hell of converting wtf? to karate, but there you go anyway lol ;)
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Postby darkhobo » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:43 pm

Sorry to just chime in to your debate here, but some things I noticed...
Lexxorcist wrote:but how can you tell it's demonstating an effective punch from the male rather than an effective evasion from the female?

I just hope that isn't demonstrating an effective punch :S
Lexxorcist wrote:she could have leaned back while raising her leg

After someone takes the time required to bring their leg all the way up to my head, and I'm done taking my sweet time stepping out of the way, if I was in the possition he was in first thing I would do is take them down and mount them. So leaning back while kicking to try to avoid a strike you think is coming, may not be the best idea, you would only go down easier.
Lexxorcist wrote:I know I don't have a hope in hell of converting wtf? to karate, but there you go anyway lol ;)

GL :D
I try not to be biased towards other martial arts, karate and TKD seem to have a bad name in the martial arts community and unfortunately a lot of schools back up those opinions. We also offer TKD at the dojo where I train in Kempo Jujutsu and I can not stand some of the katas they do. I find myself trying to figure out when any of it would work in a fight, and sometimes I can't find any situation. The way they train the chamber everything (as has been said before) is just weird in my opinion, it doesn't even feel right.
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Postby sprout » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:08 pm

Heres something to quandry karateka, why not defend and attack at the same time, instead of a one-two approach? Try it and see what you think.
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wtf? wrote:like looking for mensa candidates in a jerry springer trailor park

don't click this link...

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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:15 pm

Looking at it again, she's just performed a side kick to the head. From that I'd deduce he's demonstrating moving to the right (out of the line of the kick) and at the same time lowering himself to attack from an unexpected postition. If that's the case, he should have been closer in reality (he should have moved more diagonally rather than just to the side), but I'm pretty sure he's not demonstating a good punch there. Correct distance is part of training. Perhaps 'mr stretch' needs to do 50 pushups. ;)

The way they train the chamber everything (as has been said before) is just weird in my opinion, it doesn't even feel right.


I think sometimes the time spent on each aspect of training can be disproportionate. I've explained how practicing punches from that position improve the technique in shorter punches. It may look strange, but as they say, don't knock it 'till you've tried it. It doesn't feel right when you first do it, but the first time you try to drive a car it feels strange too. It soon begins to feel natural, and you don't find yourself adopting that position during free fighthing prior to every reverse punch. It just doesn't happen.
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Postby Lexxorcist » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:18 pm

sprout wrote:
A full punch from that position gives it more power


You dont need to chamber a punch to that extreme to get power, boxers seem to do alright dont they? What about the one inch punch from ye olde Wing Chun?


You very rarely use a punch from that position in free fighting. I've just explained all this.

Heres something to quandry karateka, why not defend and attack at the same time, instead of a one-two approach? Try it and see what you think.


We do. ;)
*** Edit *** A quote from Bruce Lee on short, front hand punches:

The leading straight is the fastest of all punches. Not only is it the main offensive weapon, but it's also an important defensive tool.

And it is a "speed" punch. Like the finger jab, the leading straight travels only a short distance to the target becuase the hand is already extended.

The leading straight is also the most accurate technique because it is delivered straight forward at a close distance, and your balance is left intact. Like a finger jab, it is hard to block, especially if you keep it a continuous, small motion.

You can put some "zip" into your punch by snapping it just before impact. Keep your hand loose and tighten your fist only and instant before contact. To put explosiveness into the blow, utilize the flowing-energy concept by adding heaviness to your hand.

The leading straight is not an end, but a means to an end. It is not a powerful blow that will knock your opponent out with one punch. It is, however, the most dominating jeet kune do punch and used profusely with the other combination punches and kicks.


The same applies in karate.
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Postby sprout » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:02 pm

Lexxorcist wrote:You very rarely use a punch from that position (from the fully chambered) in free fighting. I've just explained all this.


wtf wrote:take a karate blow... a straight punch (lets say) from the rear hand. the punch can deliver the same power from the hip, or the jawline (boxer stance) its also more protective in a boxer stance....the only arts where ive seen this are karate, and TQD... both are equally bad (TQD being the worse of the 2 in my opinion)


You fight like you train...if you change what you have been training when you're fighting/sparring then your training will have been pointless. If you train to keep your arms up, then you will develop the muscle memory and strengh to keep them up. Training one way to improve another is not how it works. Use wrist weights and shadow boxing to help train a good guard, as well as taking hits to the guard, whilst moving around, and so on.

By training horse stance am I training to ride a horse? No, I'm training a stance. Muscle memory is whats important, if you train a certain way long enough, when the situation requires it and your brain does things automatically, you will revert to how you have trained.
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wtf? wrote:like looking for mensa candidates in a jerry springer trailor park


don't click this link...

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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:35 pm

sprout wrote:
Lexxorcist wrote:You very rarely use a punch from that position (from the fully chambered) in free fighting. I've just explained all this.


wtf wrote:take a karate blow... a straight punch (lets say) from the rear hand. the punch can deliver the same power from the hip, or the jawline (boxer stance) its also more protective in a boxer stance....the only arts where ive seen this are karate, and TQD... both are equally bad (TQD being the worse of the 2 in my opinion)


You fight like you train...if you change what you have been training when you're fighting/sparring then your training will have been pointless. If you train to keep your arms up, then you will develop the muscle memory and strengh to keep them up. Training one way to improve another is not how it works. Use wrist weights and shadow boxing to help train a good guard, as well as taking hits to the guard, whilst moving around, and so on.

By training horse stance am I training to ride a horse? No, I'm training a stance. Muscle memory is whats important, if you train a certain way long enough, when the situation requires it and your brain does things automatically, you will revert to how you have trained.


You don't change what you train to do, you exagerate movements - make them full movements. To only practice short jabs would be ridiculous. Despite exlaining it already, you still seem to think a full reverse punch is the only hand technique used in karate. They are usually delivered from a fighting stance position.

From the bit you quoted from wtf?
take a karate blow... a straight punch (lets say) from the rear hand. the punch can deliver the same power from the hip, or the jawline (boxer stance) its also more protective in a boxer stance..


The full movement allows the whole body to be put into it, a principle also used in boxing. You see boxers taking large swings for KO punches. They dont often get knockouts from little jabs.

A boxer doesn't have to guard his body below the waist, so while a boxers guard is better for a boxer, it's not quite as practical when you have to take into account attacks below the waist.

You can see here where a reverse punch would typically come from (the right hand of the bloke on the left, which is currently covering his body):

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That was a photo from our dojo of Geoff Thompson demonstating how to avoid a front punch using our secret "move your head out of the way technique". He's got a great sense of humour (as long as you don't laugh).
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Postby sprout » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:59 pm

Despite exlaining it already, you still seem to think a full reverse punch is the only hand technique used in karate. They are usually delivered from a fighting stance position....


Trained karate for 7 years, Wado Ryu and Goju Ryu. Plenty of other techniques in karate...thats not my point
not quite as practical when you have to take into account attacks below the waist.

Its not practical if you dont use your legs to defend you lower door.
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wtf? wrote:like looking for mensa candidates in a jerry springer trailor park


don't click this link...


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