Aliveness in training

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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:34 pm

Trained karate for 7 years, Wado Ryu and Goju Ryu. Plenty of other techniques in karate...thats not my point


So why do you have such a problem understanding basic principles like human kinetics, and the concept that due to the longer line etc, (one of the reason sais are used in karate for advanced students is to extend the line even futher) a good full reverse punch will produce better short ones? And... what is your point?

not quite as practical when you have to take into account attacks below the waist.
Reply:
Its not practical if you dont use your legs to defend you lower door.


As a former student you must know legs are also used defensively. As I said, boxers don't need to guard that area at all, therefore it makes perfect sense for them to use both arms to guard upper body and head. When your whole body is a target area, it makes sense to practice using lower arm blocks as well as upper ones. One advantage of blocking a low kick with your arm is you can grab the leg. Both arms can defend the upper area effectively from a free fighting stance, if required. The kids in that first photo of wtf?'s are in positions used rarely outside of kata and grading patterns in my experience.

I'm not debating the fact there are a lot of crappy karateka out there who don't even understand the basic principles behind what they're doing, I'm defending the value of certain principles when taught correctly.
(If this goes on much longer I'm off back to debating the existence of god.) ;)


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Morbeus
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Postby Morbeus » Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:42 pm

Again, just my poor little newbness showing here, but it seems to me that the only reason the fully chambered punch is deemed impractical is because the hand isn't guarding the face while it's execution is prepared. Bear in mind that although the face is the most obvious target, and the one that's most easily damaged, it's also the one where you will see a strike coming.

With that in mind why not just bock with one hand and use the other, which was at your waist, to strike back while keeping the head a mobile target? Just my personal opinion that a blow that has had more time to accelerate will probably be more powerful.
Expect the unexpected and the expected will take you by surprise.

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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:03 am

Morbeus wrote:Again, just my poor little newbness showing here, but it seems to me that the only reason the fully chambered punch is deemed impractical is because the hand isn't guarding the face while it's execution is prepared. Bear in mind that although the face is the most obvious target, and the one that's most easily damaged, it's also the one where you will see a strike coming.

With that in mind why not just bock with one hand and use the other, which was at your waist, to strike back while keeping the head a mobile target? Just my personal opinion that a blow that has had more time to accelerate will probably be more powerful.


That's pretty much the idea, though I'll stress again that during free fighting, you don't often pull your fist back that far. There's a trade-off between speed and power and there's only some occasions where it's 'safe' to make such a big punch. Usually when your opponent has just hit the deck or is otherwise rocked. Even then it won't neccessarily be right back in the position seen on the photo, which is exagerated to the extreme for training reasons (as explained earlier). It may be worth mentioning a full head block would also come from that position (during a step forward or backwards). As with the punch, practicing full blocks improves smaller ones. A head block is like punching upwards, covering your whole head area, and it has the twist at the end like a punch does to help deflect the attack. The only real difference from a punch is, you leave your arm bent at the end.
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darkhobo
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Postby darkhobo » Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:01 am

Morbeus wrote:it seems to me that the only reason the fully chambered punch is deemed impractical is because the hand isn't guarding the face while it's execution is prepared.

that is only part of the problem, the other part I see is that the first movement untrained people normally make before throwing a strike is backwards. Watch as a friend throws and punch, you can see his body rock backwards to chamber for the strike. This gives you an extra half a second to move away from the strike (more then enough time)
Morbeus wrote: Bear in mind that although the face is the most obvious target, and the one that's most easily damaged, it's also the one where you will see a strike coming.

with training you should be aware of your entire body, while I spar I can see to about my knees. There are very few strikes thrown I don't see coming (almost all very low kicks).
Morbeus wrote:Just my personal opinion that a blow that has had more time to accelerate will probably be more powerful.

Common mistake. Although it does probly gain some power, if you use your hips correctly and throw a good strike you have more then enough power to get the job done. There are 3 main ways to generate power. Movement (foward, backward, sideways). Rising or lowering with the strike. And contraction and expansion. A good strike should have all three of the qualities. The foward movement of your body into the strike, the sinking of your body as you settle your foot as the strike hits. And the expansion you create when you move your hips with the strike and expand the arm from your guard. These three are way more then enough, you do not need to pull your arm all the way back to your hip to knock someone out.

Edit: Just to be clear the Movement one also includes rotation. Generally only the hips but can be an entire body rotation. Along with sinking/rising this will create power you never knew you could create.
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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:40 am

That's all very well in theory, but all the time you see excellent strikers deliver powerful punches to their opponents head without knocking them out. That's why you should put as much power into it as possible when the oppertunity arises, if your aim is to finish the fight as soon as possible. You may not often need every bit of power you have to knock someone out, but if you're in a position to deliver it - I certainly would. Good point about dropping height btw, another important element.

From
On the Dynamics of Karate
by Florin Diacu


5. The longer the distance, the higher the energy. We
will now show that the energy changes linearly with the dis-
tance the fist travels from the time of initiating the punch to
the time of impact. For this, recall the following two physics
formulas:
v = at and L =
1
2
at
2
,
which indicate that the velocity, v, equals the acceleration, a,
times the time, t, and that the length, L, equals half the
acceleration times the square of the time. Eliminating t from
the two formulas, we obtain
v =

2La,
which means that the speed increases with the square root of
the distance. Substituting v into the expression of the kinetic
energy, it follows that
E
K
= mLa.
This proves the linear dependence of the energy on the dis-
tance
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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:38 pm

to be honest, power has little to do with knock out blows, the onus is on targeting, biology, psycology, and physics.

one of your punches from the hip, even if they WERE more powerfull could bounce off a man who is biologically built to withstand such a blow. or if the targeting was wrong. which is a matter of physics, and force transfer.

while on the other hand, a light jab to a man with an open mouth would spark him out cold. (again, force transfer, and targeting)

mental state also has a lot to do with it. ive managed to knock out loads of guys in my lifetime because of my old job... every one of them wasnt expecting to get hit... only had a few punching knockouts in compititions because the other person is expecting it. now i dont mind telling you that none of those strikes were delivered from the waist because, quite simply. having your hand anywhere near there in a situation is stupid. plus enough power can be generated in a much smaller (and harder to spot) ark.

but all this is pretty semantic as were kinda disscussing karate.. which (generally) isnt close to a combat art. if it were, i would have seen a lot more ground grappling, knee's, elbows, minor joint manipulation, biting, scratching, role playing and a whole host of other things in all the dojo i have seen. (which is about 13-15ish... one of which i would watch for 40 minutes before my ju-jutsu as it was next to us in the sports centre... done that for about 12 years, now. lol)

grappling is the major arguement. as a rule 8, or 9 fights out of 10 end up on the floor, so not training to defend against such a situation degrades a combat art into a sport, or hobby art... theres a funny video somewhere that i'll try and find that shows why.
even funnier is the answer i got from 3 instructors when i asked 'why dont you grapple'

the answer was 'were too good to get taken down' it never fails to amuse.

the only 1 person, on earth that i have met that can call their karate a combat art is geoff thomson... i didnt believe it untill i got a chunk taken out of my ribcage.

*edit*
a 30 second search has just thrown up these.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... =karate+vs

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... =karate+vs
Last edited by wtf? on Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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darkhobo
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Postby darkhobo » Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:48 pm

True, I wasn't trying to say that distance doesn't help though, as the formulas show, the longer something accelerates the faster it will go (more power). I was only pointing out there are more efficiant ways to create energy. For instance, throw a punch while locking your hips and not taking a step, nothing but arm stregnth. It won't be powerful at all, even though it is a nice long punch. Take a step foward with it while keeping your hips still locked, the punch becomes more powerful. Now throw a punch while taking a step and rotating the body. The punch is much more powerful then it was. So although the length of the punch does make a difference it is probably the weakest of the ways to add power to your strike from what I can see.
Edit: a great example of getting power from no arm movement is a uppercut with good form. Your arm should just stay tight to your body (only a couple inches out) and you turn your hips and rise with the strike at the point of contact. You only need to rise up about 3 inches. A good one to the jaw when tied up with your oponent is more then enough.
I am not trying to bash karate in any way. It is a great way for people to gain some self defense and there are some very good martial artists that study karate. I can just see that some principles barrowed from other arts couldn't hurt it.
Though we study Kempo Jujutsu at my dojo we barrow principles from other arts all the time, mostly chinese arts. For instance kempo is basically chinese boxing and hardly ever not in a fist, but we use much more open hand then usual, barrowed from some other chinese arts.
In October me and some other students from my school are going to Califonia to The Gathering where we will study tons of different arts with thousands of other students. All arts can benefit from outside ideas IMO.
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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:06 pm

right on the money video here... a 1hour video about aliveness in training.

a decent on-topic find. lol

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... =karate+vs
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:33 pm

Knees, elbows and joint manipulation are all part of wado ryu. You won't see biting and scratching in our dojo, but 'anything that works' is the general rule for real fights. You won't see much ground work, and that is a hole. As you know there's gracie barra jiu jitsu taught at our dojo, so it's an easy enough hole to fill for anyone who wishes to. I can't speak for other dojos and styles, but I'd like to think you wouldn't be too digusted by ours. ;)

One question though. Baring in mind 8 or 9 fights go to the ground, how do you deal with multiple attackers from there?
one of your punches from the hip, even if they WERE more powerfull


I'm not going through all that again. The ARE more powerful. I'll add though, that things like targetting and psychology are also part of karate as I know it.

So although the length of the punch does make a difference it is probably the weakest of the ways to add power to your strike from what I can see.


Yes, quite possibly, but it still adds significant power.

Darkhobo...

As I've explained at length, we do all the other stuff you've described also. Hip movement is at the heart of karate. Everything you've just told me is so great about your way of punching applies in karate. Have you actually read the thread? :| Using all the techniques you've reeled off (and we do), why, when you have that extra split second to pull your fist back a few inches further to add significant power.... why wouldn't you? It's not an alternative way to add power, it's an additional one.


*** Edit *** WTF? said:
right on the money video here... a 1hour video about aliveness in training.

a decent on-topic find. lol

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... =karate+vs
_________________


Oh no, you're not karate bashing :roll: ;) No comment on Icelandic karateka lol
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Morbeus
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Postby Morbeus » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:43 pm

wtf,
The videos like back to an older argument about how striking based arts won't work on the street because of the fact that they don't have ground fighting as part of their syllabus. While I would generally agree with this statement I think it's a bit unfair to say they're completely useless.

If you are being rushed by an untrained opponent for example then chances are they won't be trained to defend against strikes properly. If you can get a well placed one in before they take you down (difficult I know) then you stand a good chance of being able to follow up with more. An untrained opponent might also not think to move forward when being struck repeatedly and would be at something of a disadvantage.

I'm not saying in any way that a striking art is all you need to get you by, I accept the need for grappling to be taught in most situations but I do think that even the 'traditional' arts still have some use.
Expect the unexpected and the expected will take you by surprise.

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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:51 pm

Lexxorcist wrote:One question though. Baring in mind 8 or 9 fights go to the ground, how do you deal with multiple attackers from there?


with great difficulty.

the general concensus is to get up as quickly as possible, and get your ass outta there. there are techniques where you can use meat shields, and certain takedowns that can be used to ride you opponent back onto your feet. but multiple attackers on the floor is generally a good way to get f*cked over.

this is where pre-emptive striking and role play come into their own. which is funny when you consider that almost no arts do it, and certainly none will allow swearing inside their walls.

Morbeus wrote:wtf,
The videos like back to an older argument about how striking based arts won't work on the street because of the fact that they don't have ground fighting as part of their syllabus. While I would generally agree with this statement I think it's a bit unfair to say they're completely useless.

If you are being rushed by an untrained opponent for example then chances are they won't be trained to defend against strikes properly. If you can get a well placed one in before they take you down (difficult I know) then you stand a good chance of being able to follow up with more. An untrained opponent might also not think to move forward when being struck repeatedly and would be at something of a disadvantage.

I'm not saying in any way that a striking art is all you need to get you by, I accept the need for grappling to be taught in most situations but I do think that even the 'traditional' arts still have some use.


striking arts arnt pointless... unless their solely trained. a striking art will come into its own when mixed with other arts. lexx said something about students from his dojo being able to gain other training as the karate he does doesnt fully cater to ground fighting.

in that case, the art is flawed.

if 1 art is missing something, then its not whole. if you have to go elsewhere to get the full picture, its not a combat art, its a hobby. unless of course you mix it with something else, at which point it becomes PART of a combat art, but not functional in itself.
Last edited by wtf? on Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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God i LOVE these things.



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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:52 pm

Without wishing to get into a 'whos had the most fights' contest, I've had my fair share, and the only 2 that went to the ground were taken to the ground by me. I've only knocked 3 people out in my life (real fights), and only one was with a full reverse punch, I never claimed a KO had to be a full punch. They would have all been full punches if the oppertunity had been there, but it wasn't. Awareness and judgement are also a part of karate (again, as I know it).

this is where pre-emptive striking and role play come into their own. which is funny when you consider that almost no arts do it, and certainly none will allow swearing inside their walls.


Man you gotta be sh**ing me! :D Get down our dojo.
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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:02 pm

Lexxorcist wrote:Without wishing to get into a 'whos had the most fights' contest, I've had my fair share, and the only 2 that went to the ground were taken to the ground by me. I've only knocked 3 people out in my life (real fights), and only one was with a full reverse punch, I never claimed a KO had to be a full punch. They would have all been full punches if the oppertunity had been there, but it wasn't. Awareness and judgement are also a part of karate (again, as I know it).

this is where pre-emptive striking and role play come into their own. which is funny when you consider that almost no arts do it, and certainly none will allow swearing inside their walls.


Man you gotta be sh**ing me! :D Get down our dojo.


sadly yorkshire is quite a way for me. lol

like ive said, karate on the whole is pointless (to me, and on its own), but there are exceptions.

all the encounters ive been in, give or take have been different to anything civilian. im usually accompanied by another 4 blokes, and my job wasnt putting me in a position where people would initially target me. so i was always in a position where i had the upper hand.

in the cases where it WAS aimed at me, i had the great advantage of knowing my exact surroundings, and being able to control the situation.

there were cases where this wasnt the case, and those were some horrible fights, and not something to really relate too. it wasnt anything technical or debateable... just some well placed brutality.
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God i LOVE these things.



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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Lexxorcist
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Postby Lexxorcist » Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:22 pm

I am only talking from my own experience. I guess it's like paul chen swords, if you're lucky you'll drop on a decent one. There's plenty of swearing at our dojo, and we're often subjected to our sensei's awful jokes that sound like they came out of anne summers Xmas crackers. :S We still have some of the old customs like bowing before and after lessons, and bowing to partners after sparring, and there's still a rule about respecting the sensei during lessons, but he's a great bloke anyway. The rule's mainly to keep order and keep the lessons on track. I've really got no argument about what you've seen of karate, if you''ve only seen kak, your opinion's going to reflect that. The fact it seems to get slated and the p*ss taken out of it so much reinforces your veiw that most dojo's are lame. It's a pity really, and I guess I'm lucky to have been introduced to that particular club. Seriously, if it was as bad as what you've seen, I wouldn't still be there.
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darkhobo
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Postby darkhobo » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:29 am

Lexxorcist wrote:why, when you have that extra split second to pull your fist back a few inches further to add significant power.... why wouldn't you?

Because that is what I watch for when fighting. That first movement backwards is when I make my move. Your few inches back also causes the need for a few more inches foward. If I can react fast enough most of the time from a normal punch without the backwards movement I would love to see what I can do with someone taking their sweet time to generate all that extra power just to hit nothing.
That is my main problem with it. There are better and much faster ways to do it. Ways that if done right can also actually speed to process of the strike.
Mos wrote:Americans :roll:

Mos wrote:ill say it again Americans

Simoriax wrote:well what do you know, i love americans! :)


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