Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

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Shadowkin
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Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby Shadowkin » Sun May 01, 2011 3:01 am

hi guys,
just thought id ask you guys about this 'chi' thing.
ive seen videos where people claim to be enhancing their martial arts skills by using their 'chi' or 'Ki'
it seems to me like some kinda of magical element :)
do these people actually use an strange type of energy or is it just some psychological effect that happens to enhance their skils
some example if come across
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzP41WzhrYA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a69y3nhMaZY

its amazing it cant really be denied i guess, videos dont lie but i just want your opinions

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Geordie Ross
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby Geordie Ross » Tue May 24, 2011 5:40 am

Hi, well chi and other forums of supernatural energy are frankly BS power in a punch is technique and physical ability, starts in the toes and ends in the knuckles. Less chi more fluid kinetic energy. it's true that clearing your mind and focusing will improve your ability as most athletes can tell you, in some cases it's down to the placebo effect.
As for those vids..... It stinks of stooge, he's trying to advertise lessions, and speaking as a boxer NO ONE on earth reacts like that when being punched lmao his facial expressions and body language look like he's been shot :|
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crwydryny
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby crwydryny » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:58 am

one of the martial arts I practice is ki aikido, I can't really tell you if ki/chi is a supernatural power or just a mind set but there is definatly something there and when you have a 7ft tall 230lb+ guy running at you only to go flying on his butt from an out stretched and relaxed arm (and you're only 5'10 and at best 180lb) it makes one think. as to what it is, some claim it (to quote starwars) "surronds us, passes through us, it binds the universe together" (or something like that) though others claim it's a state of mind, of being relaxed and co-ordinated. others say it's both.
if you look at the original taoist texts (as that's where chi was first described as part of taoist philosophy) it basically says that chi is basically life energy, and part of the tao and as such flows through everything. but short of going on a huge post about taoist philosophy the best I can say on it is make up your own mind regarding it, try a few ki orientated martial arts, (tai chi, ki aikido,) or other ki/chi orientated stuff (chi kung, reiki, ect) try them with an open mind, and see what you make of it, if it exsists, if it is tangible or just all in the mind.

before trying ki aikido I was of the mindset that ki was nonsence and ki based arts were soft but since trying it I have to say it's improved my practice in other martial arts (karate, escrema and more martial forms of aikido)
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Geordie Ross
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby Geordie Ross » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:46 pm

I disagree! it's bogus physics deifying nonsense, when you watch demonstrations you see what you want to see, similar to a eve angelical preacher making someone feel the powers of Jesus lol! placebo effect mixed with physics and skill. Im sorry but it is, if there was anything to it and you could enrich you punch with super chi why is the most powerful punch on record held by western boxers instead of a Taoist fighter lol? Or why has science not developed a method to explain and harness it? Sorry chi, back in the box with ghosts and gods lol ;)
To my knowledge ancient eastern martial artists would compete with other schools for students and the master with the biggest school would become rich and famous, sounds like a gimmick to rope in gullible kids lol
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crwydryny
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby crwydryny » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:51 pm

true it's not what a lot of people make it out to be someone who weighs all of 10 stone soaking wet is going to hit a lot lighter than someone who has 20lb of muscle to work with.
but it's not the physics defying thing that the media and some people make it out to be, it won't make you flick a guy across the room with one finger or make you stop a sword with you bare hands but from my experience with ki based martial arts it does have something there. like I said it could simply be down to relaxation without allowing yourself to go weak, or simply giving you that positive mindset not to back away. but I've seen it being demonstrated and have demonstrated it myself. I'm not exsactly huge but some of the exercises I've done such as "unbendable arm" (a basic ki test in aikido) where when you tense up it's easy for the other person to bend your arm but once you relax and "project forward" (same sort of fealing as reaching for something) it becomes near impossible for someone to bend your arm. another test involves lifting someone up by their arms. when tense it's easy to lift them up (so much so you can litterally throw them in the air) yet once they relax it feel like they double or even tripple in weight my ki aikido sensei is about 9 stone, and I can lift atleast double my weight due to years of bouldering (I'm 12-13 stone) but both me and the other guy taking part in the demonstration (who is about 6'5 and just as wide) were forced to our knees trying to keep him in the air.

but that said there are a lot of fakes out there that try to make it out to be some magical thing that can make you fly or cure cancer, or bench press a bus.

but that said we're all allowed our own views, if you feel it's just smoke and mirrors that's fine, maybe it is, but it's also worth noting that science still doesn't know everything (as any scientist will tell you) and I should also point out that I'm an ex physics and chemistry student (so not one of those airy fairy new age types lol) and as such all I can say is until someone actually studies it scientifically and proves it doesn't exsist then in my mind it jury is still out on the subject. I've seen and felt some things atributed to ki that can't be easily dismissed, at least not without some kind of scientific testing to find out what exsactly causes these effects
death is more universal than life
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kiri
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby kiri » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:41 pm

A somewhat late answer to this thread ;)

But yes it most definately does.

I've studied Chi Kung for about 20 years. And have also practiced the energy development techniques used in Ba Gua, Hsing I and I Chuan.

Anyone who has ever seriously studied an internal art will begin to experience chi within a few weeks (or months if you are particularly insensitive )

The movement of chi (Ki, Qi, Prana) is also the basis of Traditional Chinese Medicine, Traditional Tibetan Medicine Ayurvedic Medicine etc.

There are not that many martial artists in the west who have seriously developed their Chi or the ability to produce Fa Jin but there are a few knocking about.

I would suggest you read B. K. Frantzis book "The power of the internal martial arts"
and "Xing Yi Quan Xue The Study of Form-Mind Boxing" by Sun Lu Tang

I did a lot of "hard" external martial arts when I was young, including some boxing.

There's no doubt you get some awesome athletes training this way. But there's absolutely no mistaking the difference of being hit by someone who has trained externally vs someone who has developed internal power. Internal power wins hands down.

I've been hit by a few, and they were all being "nice" not an experience I will ever forget!

There are a lot of reductionist sceptics out there who are sadly blinkered by their own impoverished view of the world, which is based on a kind of arrogance stemming from the western medical / scientific model. Western science is great and very good at describing certain things, but not so good at others.

In fact Chi both in the martial and medical context has been extensively researched in China (not suprisingly!) and the info is out there if you look for it. Such as studies done at the Quing Hua University in Beijing on the Chi Kung master Yen Xin in the 1980's
Or Japanese studies carried out at the National Institute of Radiological Sciences.

http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/islis/belabo/tohate.avi

The reason you don't get many martial artists demonstrating this type of ability is A) that it is difficult to develop and difficult to find someone to teach it B) has been regarded as secret knowledge C) much was lost following the cultural revolution D) there is the Chinese language barrier.

I would agree that there are a lot of fakes out there. For example some martial arts teachers "condition" their students to flinch / fall over. That's not Chi, it's dog training. However the real deal is out there if you look for it.

Be aware that not all energy development exercises are safe or desirable. You can read Glenn J. Morris' books for and example of unwise energy development. Or Gopi Krishna's book "Kundalini the evolutionary energy in man" 

So do try and find a genuine teacher who knows what they are doing (as I've said, not easy)

There is actually quite a fair bit of research in to these types of things by western researchers. Lynne McTaggart's books "The Field" and "The Intention Experiment" are well worth a read. Not on martial arts per se but on general parapsychological research.

Good luck.
 
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Geordie Ross
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby Geordie Ross » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:41 pm

Lol I don't really know where to begin with that, It's like faith healers, riddled with stooges, money and placebo, as for something that cant be proven NOT to exist is the same as me saying, have you met my invisible pet unicorn? You cabt prove its there but we all know it isnt. As for a lack of western practitioners, even the eastern practitioners have been extensively tested and nothing abnormal has been witnessed, if it does exist don't you think army's and military's all over the world would have pounced on chi based martial arts. And don't get me started on Chinese medicine....

Untill I see some verifiable evidence in the slightest form, il stick to my guns, and keep my invisible inter dimensional unicorn well fed 7878
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kiri
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby kiri » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:41 pm

I completely respect that people have different points of view on these subjects and the original poster has now heard both sides and can make his own mind up.

I have met a number of people who share your point of view, and if I have learnt one thing, it is that no matter what evidence or argument a person puts forward, it's not going to convince the die hard sceptic with an entrenched viewpoint!

To respond to a few of your points though.

Chinese Medicine consists of Acupuncture, Herbal Medicine and techniques such as Chi Kung Tui Na. Chinese medicine has been very well known in the west since the 1970's and there are a wealth of clinical trials by western doctors reported in peer reviewed journals dealing with it. 

I appreciate that there is the sort of doctor out there who spends vast amounts of time selectively posting negative studies on sites like "Quackwatch" and theres no doubt they have their own axes to grind.

It's funny how such sites either completely ignore the many positive studies or just dismiss them out of hand without properly evaluating the research.

An interesting example of this is the traditional chinese herbal remedy called Quinghaosu. This has been used for at least 600 years within Chinese Medicine to treat fever. It was developed by the Chinese in to a drug in the 1960's However the western medical community refused to consider it, heaped scorn on Chinese research techniques and ignored it. Some 30 years later this was finally taken seriously in the west and is now better known as Artemesinin one of the most promising anti malarial drugs in our arsenal. Sad about the thousands of lives that could have been saved if the blinkered sceptics had got off their high horses and realised that a medical system that dates back several thousand years has maybe learnt a thing or two.

To respond to your point about modern military use of internal martial arts.

Back in the old days when wars were fought with fists and swords etc martial arts training would give you a survival advantage over your enemy. However this was completely negated by the advent of firearms. This became particularly apparent during the boxer rebellion 1899-1901 when internal artists believed that the techniques they used to harden themselves against physical strikes (such as "steel jacket" "golden bell" etc) would protect them against bullets. Sadly of course they didn't!

This is why most modern armies do relatively little or no martial arts training. You have a rifle. Even elite units in the British Army only do a 2 week "Jap slapping" course which is designed to be taught and learnt quickly. Very similar to Krav Magda.

Your average squaddie does not have 7 hours a day to stand in San Ti for 2 years to cultivate his chi before he even learns the first strike, and even if he did would have little use for it.

Everything has it's place, certain elements of Russian Spetznaz train in Systema, which is an internal art. And very effective it is too.

I assume from your unicorn comments you are attempting to refer to Karl Poppas theory of the non falsifiable hypothesis.

I am not in the slightest claiming that because you can't prove Chi isn't real that therefore it is. 

The point I am making is that modern scientific methods cannot explain everything. When you go to the quantum level the basic laws of physics break down. The same happens when you go very big in to the realm of cosmology. It would seem that modern science can only define a slice of reality and outside that box, the normal rules don't apply. 

My other point is that there are a lot of people round the world doing quality research in to areas scorned by the sceptical community. These are not airy fairy hippy types seeing unicorns but serious scientists carrying out controlled double blind studies that are then published in peer reviewed journals. The fact is many of these publications and studies are completely ignored, not through any lack of quality in the research but simply because the sceptics don't believe them and don't like the subjects they are researching.
So many dreams like moths around a luminous mind to flutter for an instant before perishing on the unbearable brightness.........

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Geordie Ross
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby Geordie Ross » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:40 pm

Again there is too many bones to pick at, I don't know where to begin, let's just say we agree to disagree lol, but untill a genuinely independent and conclusive report is released I'm a non believer :|
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adam4472
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby adam4472 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:37 pm

just think if you can believe in this why can't you believe in pastafarianism
NanKuruNaiSa

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Geordie Ross
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby Geordie Ross » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:47 pm

Lol derren brown must be super chi master ;)

Ohh here's something to watch if you have the time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZFK59z-6Ik
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby Big Lazy » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:07 am

Do you believe in The Force? :mrgreen:
Pimp or die baby!

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Geordie Ross
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby Geordie Ross » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:47 am

Yeah there's load of evidence for it, like 10 movies full of it
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby the blade master » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:46 am

use the force geordie use the force oewww
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Re: Does 'fa jing' or chi really exist?

Postby Geordie Ross » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:09 pm

Lol we don't mean to mock anyone who does believe in it, we're just playing :)
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