Chinese vs Japanese

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Goodgulfthewizzard
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Chinese vs Japanese

Postby Goodgulfthewizzard » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:25 pm

If a master of Kendo using a katana and a master of wing chun using the butterfly swords or a master of wushu using the broadsword were to have a fight, who would win? I'm guessing that the butterfly swords would not be much use against a katana.

Does anyone know of any such duels and are there any pics or vids about the subject?
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Skeet
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Postby Skeet » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:09 pm

The winner would be the one who sneaked a revolver in his pocket....
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Azeroth_Storm
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Postby Azeroth_Storm » Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:21 pm

May I just say, with all due respect,
these "theoretical" scenarios cause more argument than they are worth and the truth is.........
we will never know. :shock:
My money is on Jian shu (straight sword) or Dao shu (sabre/machete)
but Im biased. 8)
Think you might find that most folks are biased, one way or another.
Regards
Storm
First stage of swordsmanship requires the combination of man and sword.
Man is the sword, sword is the man.
Grass in the hand can be used as weapon too.
Second stage of swordsmanship requires sword in heart.
Bare hands could kill within 100 paces with the invisible sword.
The highest stage of swordsmanship, have no sword at all, neither in hands nor heart.
It is to comprehend everything liberally.
It is not to kill.
It is peace.
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Loebas
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Postby Loebas » Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:31 pm

Well, I think it all depends. It depends on the way the warriors learned, what they learned, and the quality of the weapons. ;) I mostly agree with Azeroth, we will never know.
[i]Looking for mercy street...i]

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Lord Crimson
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Postby Lord Crimson » Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:55 pm

I'm going to point out the butterfly swords blocking the katana, the Chinese broardsword using sheer weight to break the betterfly swords block, and the katana being fast enough to move around the broardsword,

Rock paper scissors anyone?

Of course the European fencer would win, because he'd bring an army along with him
:cool:

Shen Jian
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Postby Shen Jian » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:02 pm

First and foremost it is the martial artist who wins or loses the fight, not the style.

However, it's a fascinating thought. Personally, I think a duel between a Kenjutsu master and a master of the Jian could be awesome (if rather brief) to watch. I would certainly not bet on the outcome of the match - other than to say one or both would be fatally wounded within a few seconds.

I largely agree with Azeroth_Storm that we will never know and these arguments tend to cause more trouble than they're worth. It can start out as friendly academic discussion and turn into people becoming highly defensive of their art.

"Jikishin kore dojo nari"
The highest ideal of swordsmanship is to lay down your sword.

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Postby Goodgulfthewizzard » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:41 pm

Shen Jian wrote:First and foremost it is the martial artist who wins or loses the fight, not the style.

However, it's a fascinating thought. Personally, I think a duel between a Kenjutsu master and a master of the Jian could be awesome (if rather brief) to watch. I would certainly not bet on the outcome of the match - other than to say one or both would be fatally wounded within a few seconds.

I largely agree with Azeroth_Storm that we will never know and these arguments tend to cause more trouble than they're worth. It can start out as friendly academic discussion and turn into people becoming highly defensive of their art.

"Jikishin kore dojo nari"


This is why i did not post my opinion on which style i think would win as i do not want to make a debate out of this, i was more interested in if there have been any duels of this nature that people know of. It seems not so i shall leave it at that :cool:
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Banzai Joe
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Postby Banzai Joe » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:35 pm

yeah.....a moot subject, but seeing as its got us sitting up and reading, i may as well post sommat.

I'm of the opinion, that the kenjutsu master has a BIG advantage at the very start of the duel, i.e. one-cut-kill, resheath method. (nukitsuke-noto). After that his blade speed, although formidable may not be able to contain the varied and unpredictable movements of the kung fu styles. But if the katana was close enough, a killing blow would be very hard to deflect.

just my 2 penneth.......lets keep it friendly!
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Skeet
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Postby Skeet » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:20 pm

And if not a fatal strike...certainly limbs could be lost very quickly, and after that, its just a question of finishing them off.

Thinking about it (all be it, with basic knowledge) if the Samurai can last 1000 years, doing what they do...I'm pretty sure that these sorts of duels were fought and seemingly, going by the survival of the fittest, I dare say, that says something about a man with a Katana.
Patrick Combs wrote:"The documents I had expected to make me cry actually made me laugh out loud. First Interstate Bank of California was abbreviated throughout as FICAL. An acronym pronounced as fecal, not fical, I thought. This is a fecal matter."

Click here for a good read!!




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Postby darksun_uk » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:25 pm

Banzai Joe wrote:yeah.....a moot subject,


it is yes..8)

Banzai Joe wrote:but seeing as its got us sitting up and reading, i may as well post sommat.



yeah me to...:cool:

Banzai Joe wrote:
I'm of the opinion, that the kenjutsu master has a BIG advantage at the very start of the duel, i.e. one-cut-kill, resheath method. (nukitsuke-noto). After that his blade speed, although formidable may not be able to contain the varied and unpredictable movements of the kung fu styles. But if the katana was close enough, a killing blow would be very hard to deflect.


interesting and relavent points, the butterfly sword user may throw one at his opponent forcing an error allowing him to close in or killing him outright. (as many users of sai did vrs katana weilding opponents)

a chinese swordsmans flowing cuts and indirect circling motions would give him some leeway to create an opening or force an over commited strike from his opponent (a common enough principle i know but it needed saying)

luck and individual skill play so significant a part in these matters it is a moot and subjective arguement but fun to speculate non the less.



Banzai Joe wrote:.lets keep it friendly!


always...8)

kind regards
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Goodgulfthewizzard
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Postby Goodgulfthewizzard » Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:24 am

As everyone seems to be able to stay civilised about this subject, unlike some other forums i have been on, i would like to move the subject onto unarmed combat.
I have no training with any type of blade apart from self taught stuff so i cannot really comment on the matter.
I got to 2nd Dan in Wado Ryu Karate although i havn't trained for 2 years. During those 2 years i have visited many chinese martial arts classes and seen the huge difference in the skill level they had compared to the high grades at my karate club. I had to fight many 5th Dan and above people as part of my grading and i didn't rate them at all. It may have just been the club itself as freestyle sparring was encouraged rather than the long stances and power strikes of traditional Wado Ryu.

My point is (finally) that if you took all Japanese unarmed martial arts as a whole, and the same for the Chinese martial arts, I think the speed, accuracy, technique and flowing movements of the Chinese martial arts would trounce the jerky, tensed up and awkward feeling movements of the Japanese martial arts.

There, I said it! Please remember, this is just my opinion and it does not matter whether it is right, wrong or somewhere in the middle. I respect all martial artists, whatever style they choose to do.
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Banzai Joe
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Postby Banzai Joe » Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:01 am

I thought you were going to sway the way of the japanese........but i actually agree with you. My martial background spans over 20 years and i have studied, 2 styles of karate (wado included), ninjutsu, aikido, iaido and kendo.....and some chinese dang lang kung fu.
Now i didn't study kung fu for long, but the insight it gave me was invaluable. My friend is dan graded in kung fu, aikido, and mushindo and has studied various other hard arts. He regards aikido as his central art, but admits kungfu strikes are the most devasting out of all the strikes he has ever learned (including karate, ninjutsu and tae kwon do). Indeed, he says the only sparring partners that are able to put him under pressure are his tai chi peers. Now he is a very accomplished martial artist in every sense and if i had to choose someone to have by my side in battle it would be this guy. It seems to me that japanese arts, although i love em, are so disciplinarian that often students become robotic to its whims. I don't think i've ever trained in a karate dojo where students are allowed to express their art in their own way. (i'm sure the experience ma guys know what i mean). in aikido, you are taught to find your way to a technique and make it yours. in karate you tend to just emulate, due to the discpline aspects, its not often that you will 'feel' the technique. The chinese arts, if done with a hint of a western influence can be very very effective, with circular, flowing, unpredictable styles running rings around karateka......this is the experience i have, and have seen it happen.
But, like i said at the start, i practice japanese arts, not chinese, but for me its never been about the combat. I studied kickboxing 5 nights a week for 4 years to give me the combat experience i wanted, the rest is a journey of enlightenment.

Drop a penny and lend your thoughts. :cool:
"A man should never have sexual intercourse with another man. God hates that!" Leviticus 18.

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Azeroth_Storm
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Postby Azeroth_Storm » Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:13 am

Well, Im stunned, and quite pleasantly surprised.
I agree that there is something to be gained from any martial art or combat training
but I have always "felt" chinese suited me better.
I have tried karate (kuikuishinkai ? scuse spelling please,)
and a few others but, yes, robotic is the word I would choose.
I have, recently, watched Mind Body and Kick Ass Moves and
Id just like to say........
Im not going to the Philipines. EVER :?
Regards
Storm
First stage of swordsmanship requires the combination of man and sword.

Man is the sword, sword is the man.

Grass in the hand can be used as weapon too.

Second stage of swordsmanship requires sword in heart.

Bare hands could kill within 100 paces with the invisible sword.

The highest stage of swordsmanship, have no sword at all, neither in hands nor heart.

It is to comprehend everything liberally.

It is not to kill.

It is peace.

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Goodgulfthewizzard
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Postby Goodgulfthewizzard » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:08 pm

It's great to see some knowledgable people in here. Most people i ask these types of question to say "what one did Bruce Lee do 'cos i like that one" :roll:
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Shen Jian
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Postby Shen Jian » Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:11 pm

This does indeed seem to be a highly civilised discussion of a subject I tend to steer clear of unless I'm in friendly company. As it appears we are all being humble in offering our personal opinions I thought I'd add mine. I anticipate making some broad generalisations and the knowledgeable among you will certainly think of exceptions. For the sake of brevity I ask you to give me a little slack.

Being a practitioner of Tai Chi and Aikido (just a beginner) I would tend to favour the Chinese styles. I'm also surprised to see the majority in this discussion favouring them - usually the Japanese styles win in terms of popularity. Japanese styles can be very regimented and indeed my Aikido class is very regimented. Whether this approach to training is better or not for an aspiring martial artist depends on the student I think. For me I think it works well and I deliberately chose Iwama Ryu Aikido for that reason. (As an aside: my Aikido teacher recommends practicing Tai Chi and Yoga for 1 year before starting Aikido.)

The flow and internal power of an accomplished Tai Chi or Ba Gua Zhang practitioner is certainly formidable. These styles may make Japanese styles like Karate seem wooden and overly dependent on form but this I doubt is anything inherent in the techniques or martial philosophies of such styles. It's worthwhile remebering that Kara-te originally meant Chinese-hand - kara being the same pronunciation for 2 different characters. The character was changed to mean 'empty' to remove the overt Chinese reference. When Karate became popular some Japanese considered it unseemly to show any reliance upon China (the Japanese and Chinese weren't enjoying the best relations at that time). Certainly the martial arts of Japan have borrowed from China, but the details are difficult to come by. Aikido's founder is said to have picked up some Kung Fu training in China - B.K. Francis suggests in one of his books that he may well have trained in Ba Gua. I cannot possibly say either way (probably no-one can), but given what little I know about both arts it wouldn't surprise me.

My is guess is that some Chinese techniques were adopted, altered and combined with others in a way that reflected the strict social structure of feudal Japan which existed for about 1000 years as a previous poster noted. So it may hardly be surprising that in this environment martial arts became very formalised. Additionally some styles adopted a strong sports focus along the way (such as Kendo and Judo) which compounded the formalisation.

Somehow in China it seems this hasn't happened to the same extent, although formalisation is still present to some degree or another in just about any martial art you care to mention, be it Chinese, Japanese or Philippino.

To me none of this really matters because I don't train to be a better fighter. Even the Philippino martial artists (widely perceived as devastating fighters) say "to win in a fight you need 3 things: skill, courage and luck; and you need all 3 things in equal measure". Of these only the first is affected by your style. So we are back at the practitioner winning the fight, not the style!

I suppose we all must find our 'way' be it a martial art, buddhism or ballet.

So much for the sake of brevity. I appear to have written a mini-essay... I look forward to reading your thoughts on anything I've said. I reiterate that what I have said is largely my personal view and is humbly offered as such.
The highest ideal of swordsmanship is to lay down your sword.


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