Chinese vs Japanese

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darksun_uk
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Postby darksun_uk » Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:16 pm

Shen Jian wrote: say "to win in a fight you need 3 things: skill, courage and luck; and you need all 3 things in equal measure". Of these only the first is affected by your style. So we are back at the practitioner winning the fight, not the style!.


thanks for your post very intereseting, sometimes formalized training methods can be usefull but should really be combined with other methods to form truly usefull system (imho)

i have already posted the below in another thread but as it seems relavent to the discussion i will repost it here.


some very interesting points and they shed light on an issue that has been with us since the origins of human conflict and something that touches on both eastern and western systems of defense the "secret" techniques professed by many schools of defense, now some of you may think and justifiably so that any secrets within the arts are just to an extent marketing ploys to get punters in the training hall and to a degree you would be correct but if you look deeper into this area it starts to make sense in the realm of part of a fighting style and within any martial system any offensive action has a defensive counter and as most of you will be aware leading to provoke a counter or leaving an opening to an attack to exploit it with a counter is a core principle of armed and unarmed combat...taking this to its logical conclusion we can deduce that any experienced Practitioner of any established combat art would hold onto certain techniques and knowledge as the pinnacle of there art because within there fighting style knowledge of counters and unexpected movements and attacks or additional training methods would be a very valuable asset to them and there position (and may save there lives)
either in a confrontation with someone from the same style or knowledge of how to exploit weakness in another art this idea reached a zenith (imho) within the arts of china where kungs where used to build skill in a given realm for example the iron hand technique and these activities in themselves proved usefull to inspire almost magical levels of fear and awe among commoners and fellow martial artists. these ideas also produced many of the more esoteric weapons in some chinese systems as one school would develop and refine there weapons to better counter there most frequent opponents.

while i may seem to be covering old ground as far a some of you are concerned i feel its important to realize that even within modern combat systems the element of surprise and the vunerabilty it can engender in even a highly trained and skilled individual should never be underestimated never allow yourselves to be drawn into a clever trap its what some of us old dogs use to compensate for our slightly slower hand speed and physical conditioning etc 8)

in essence then i suppose in whatever your chosen field is always try to think outside the box and imagine what you would do to counter/evade the techniques and forms that are presented to you(assuming you dont already ) because i can practically guarantee that someone will have done it before
(to an extent :-D )

kind regards
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Postby Goodgulfthewizzard » Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:00 pm

I agree with you 100% DS. Training can take you to a point, whatever martial art you do, but to take it to the next level you must create your own style which suits your own physical abilities and mental attitude. I think that the Chinese martial arts encourage this kind of development more than the Japanese arts. This is the reason I left my karate club. I developed my own fighting style which worked for me ( i won several tournaments with it 8) ) but the instructors still insisted that i should fight more agressively rather than depending on speed in the counter-attack. It is going to take me a long long time to get to that stage in Wing Chun but i thik it will be worth the wait.
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Postby Stazbumpa » Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:22 am

I'm a ju-jitsu man personally, and I find it to be one of the most adaptable martial arts there is. I agree with the 3 time World Ultimate Fighting Champion, who's name always bloody escapes me: "Ju-Jitsu and Kick-boxing are the 2 most pratical martials arts on a a day to day basis. Combine these 2, and you have a better chance than most."

A guy were I work did Aikido for 9 years and trained under a Japanese master. He is of the opinion that ju-jitsu a basic requirement for any decent self defence. The Russian Spetznaz nicked its basics and made Systema (which is a very painful system, trust me).

PS: Our "Control and Restraint" procedures for dealing with arseholes at work are all ju-jitsu based and they work.


PPS: Just my twopenneth.
Violence only begets violence?
Well allow me to retort.
Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete, fully thought-through, professional, well-executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not "re-educated," not "nurtured back into the bosom of love." Dead. D-E--Well, you get the idea.

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Postby Banzai Joe » Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:08 pm

Stazbumpa,
Tito Ortiz? or one of Gracie clan?
And i agree with you, the jutsu (and/or combative) arts tend to have a distinct advantage, because they are simplistic in their execution. Aikido, for the past decade has been my central art, but it is very flowery (for certain purposes), i would never give it up, but i also practice aiki-jutsu and its basic and very devastating techniques, used on the battlefield, are economical and practical, and very valuable to have in your arsenal as a martial artist.
Kickboxing is purely combative......nuff said!

Keep it up guys, theres a lot of great and thought provoking posts on here.
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Postby Jake » Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:29 pm

Royce or Rickson Gracie wasn't it?

Jake

Jaques

Postby Jaques » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:13 pm

[quote="Goodgulfthewizzard"]I agree with you 100% DS. Training can take you to a point, whatever martial art you do, but to take it to the next level you must create your own style which suits your own physical abilities and mental attitude. I think that the Chinese martial arts encourage this kind of development more than the Japanese arts. This is the reason I left my karate club. I developed my own fighting style which worked for me ( i won several tournaments with it 8) ) but the instructors still insisted that i should fight more agressively rather than depending on speed in the counter-attack[quote]
Really? My instuctors (in wodo kai) always taught us that it was counter attacks that won fights. But our instructors always encouraged changin your form when we were sparring. When we were doin the moves up and down the hall it was all very stiff, and we would have to do it absolutely to perfection. But this was to perfect the moves, so that we could adapt them to sparring situations. I heard a number of stories, such as someone who won a karate tournament by scoring all his points using a backhand. And also someone who did Katas incredibly losely and slowly, but his stances were all perfect, and he won the kata competition.

About it being down to the martial artist I agree entirely. For example, someone I know, Alex, he's a blue belt, but his brother is on his 1st dan. His brother has showed him loads of moves and they've trained together for a long time. Alex is planning to double grade when he does, as he's been on his blue for a long time. But anyway he was having a spar with the sempei (I think that's what you call the kinda under sensei...?) who is 2nd dan. 3 times Alex just countered and swept the Senpei's legs out.

I had only been doing karate for a year or so, and I only reached yellow, but I was probably the best yellow in the class. I knew 4 katas, and every move in the sylabus to perfection. When I go back I'm probably gonna try get to where I was before, and then do more and double grade.

One time I was fighting a brown belt whose on the england team, and I nearly beat him. But we had to wear these stupid padded helmet things for safety because of his age or somthin, I think he was 11 or 12 and for some reason he had to have one. But the bloody things sheilded your vision to the left and right, and the little bastard kept doing roundhouse kicks lol. Had to take wild guesses where he was aiming for my blocks. Had we not been wearing them I think I mighta been able to beat him.

Another time I was fighting someone who was a grade above me, and he was the worst fighter I've ever seen. He just desperately tried to stick to the forms, and half the time he was lookin at his arms to see if he was doing it right. I didn't even bother putting my guard up til I wanted to hit him back. Celebrated with some fish'n'chips :lick:

Also, our Sensei, who was a 5th dan was showing us various moves on some unlucky 'volunteers'. One he was using a thin 6" black metal stick, and he just got people in locks so easily. His moves seem slow, but you just can't follow them. At another point he was demonstrating on Alex, and ended up twisting his arm behind his back and forcing him to bend over, spinning him around over and over again, and then reversing the direction he was spinning. The only thing Alex could have done is fallen on the floor, in which case the Sensei still had his arm....Kinda Pai Mei Kill Bill Vol.2 style lol. He owned his arm basically lol.

But yeh, Karate can be alot more formless than you think, but it's all up to the practicioner.

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Postby Banzai Joe » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:32 pm

But yeh, Karate can be alot more formless than you think, but it's all up to the practicioner.


Ahaaa......i was wondering where u were going with this....lol
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Postby michael_collins_2000_ie » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:35 pm

Skeet wrote:And if not a fatal strike...certainly limbs could be lost very quickly, and after that, its just a question of finishing them off.

Thinking about it (all be it, with basic knowledge) if the Samurai can last 1000 years, doing what they do...I'm pretty sure that these sorts of duels were fought and seemingly, going by the survival of the fittest, I dare say, that says something about a man with a Katana.


Chinese warfare is older than Japanese warfare, so im pretty sure they both have centuries of examples to draw upon. With respect to the argument, it makes me wonder what a practicioner of Krabi Kabong (a Thai two sword art) or a Burmese knife fighter would do against the Katana or the Chinese broadsword.
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Postby Jaques » Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:42 pm

michael_collins_2000_ie wrote:
Skeet wrote:And if not a fatal strike...certainly limbs could be lost very quickly, and after that, its just a question of finishing them off.

Thinking about it (all be it, with basic knowledge) if the Samurai can last 1000 years, doing what they do...I'm pretty sure that these sorts of duels were fought and seemingly, going by the survival of the fittest, I dare say, that says something about a man with a Katana.


Chinese warfare is older than Japanese warfare, so im pretty sure they both have centuries of examples to draw upon. With respect to the argument, it makes me wonder what a practicioner of Krabi Kabong (a Thai two sword art) or a Burmese knife fighter would do against the Katana or the Chinese broadsword.

Run away? Lol. I honestly can't say. I'm more interested in how well someone with sai would do. The Okanowans used Sai against katanas, unless I'm much mistaken.

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Postby koga » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:26 pm

butterfly swords would be some help the back of the hilt is shaped like a jitte sword trap so if the kung fu swords man was exceptionally skilled with them he could catch the opponants blades and simply snap them

2841981

Postby 2841981 » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:58 pm

wow major thread necro lol :D

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Postby wtf? » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:13 pm

and not even for good reason. thats a baaaaaaaaaaad newbie. stop it, or be prepared to be slapped in the face with a large fish.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

Angelus

Postby Angelus » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:18 pm

Koga, please refer to my reply in "most effective martial art..." in this forum. Thread necromancy is bad if you don't have anything useful to add to the thread, please don't do it in future :D

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Postby Hatamoto » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:28 pm

Does that make this thread reanimated now? Coz I was really enjoying reading all the different opinions and ideas, lol, even if I couldn't add my own. Surprised it stopped so abruptly :(
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2841981

Postby 2841981 » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:54 pm

i can remember back in the days where there was a post saying thread necro was okay because it showed that the newbies had read through the topics before posting, i guess the rules have changed now :S

nath/2841981


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