Dagger fighting

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Loebas
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Dagger fighting

Post by Loebas » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:09 pm

Hiya,

I've found myself strangely obsessed with daggers lately, and I don't mean knives, I mean daggers. Now I know there is knife fighting but are there any arts including dagger fighting? I could imagine this would be somewhat like short swords or something..?

(It's probably not right but with knives I mean like around 6 inch blades, and daggers about three times that size and above)

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ECAkeris
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Post by ECAkeris » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:06 pm

I think Michael Finn wrote a book about it but not sure....

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darksun_uk
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Re: Dagger fighting

Post by darksun_uk » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:00 pm

Loebas wrote:. Now I know there is knife fighting but are there any arts including dagger fighting?

(It's probably not right but with knives I mean like around 6 inch blades, and daggers about three times that size and above)
the knife is one of the weapons included in some schools of okinawan karate, there are many good books on modern knife self defense/martial arts etc a search on amazon etc should produce good results.

kind regards

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Loebas
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Post by Loebas » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:08 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. :-D

So eh.. there are knife fighting techniques and books about it, which I find interesting in itsself, but what about daggers? Should I just resort to short swords?

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Ghafrash
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Post by Ghafrash » Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:06 pm

I did some knife fighting back when I took Tae Kwon Do and Hap Ki Do but it was mostly about defending from knife attacks. I've havn't heard much about dagger fighting though.

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Loebas
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Post by Loebas » Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:51 pm

Ah, ok. Thanks anyway guys. :-)

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Banzai Joe
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Post by Banzai Joe » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:36 am

ECAkeris wrote:I think Michael Finn wrote a book about it but not sure....
lol.... that plank has written a book on everything.
The term 'jack-of-all-trades' and 'master-of-none' spring to mind.

As for daggers, yo, Darksun!, anything to add as regards european styles? Maybe starting from using the dagger as a secondary with a rapier, and going from there.

i'm pretty sure daggers favour in european sword fighting styles.

Come to think of it, i'll ask my brother, he's totally into the medieval fighting type of thingy. Really takes it seriously, puts on performances at nottingham castle no less, with all the clobber on. He'll know. I'll post again when i get a response from the lazy bleeder! :?

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Loebas
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Post by Loebas » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:52 pm

I am aware of the dagger used as a secondary weapon in medieval times, I've read some articles on it and such, but I wonder, are there any styles using single or duel daggers, and nothing else?

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Post by darksun_uk » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:21 pm

Banzai Joe wrote:
As for daggers, yo, Darksun!, anything to add as regards european styles? Maybe starting from using the dagger as a secondary with a rapier, and going from there.
that area of dagger useage is certainly worthy of inclusion in any study of knife/dagger fighting, however the use of a parrying dagger either a specially created one or simply a day to day style carry item in the style of the day is complicated by the fact that most of the techniques etc used will be part of the system taught by the school of fence and as such will be interesting but will require a lot of thought as to how effectively the dagger parts of the system can be used alone...
Banzai Joe wrote: i'm pretty sure daggers favour in european sword fighting styles.
indeed there is plenty of evidence to suggest this as a dagger was an almost universally carried sidearm throughout much of european history the common carry styles would indicate there usefullness as a quick draw weapon and indoors the shorter blade lengths would be more usefull, this point brings us back to the similarties of dagger and short sword use and as such i can say that most sword techniques can and were used in dagger fighting as many medieval styles of dagger in particular are just smaller versions of the common sword types of the day and could/would be used in a similar fashion, many techniques dealing with knife figthing could then just as easily be "scaled up" to cover daggers and short swords with of course a few alterations etc

Banzai Joe wrote: Come to think of it, i'll ask my brother, he's totally into the medieval fighting type of thingy. Really takes it seriously, puts on performances at nottingham castle no less, with all the clobber on. He'll know. I'll post again when i get a response from the lazy bleeder! :?
excellent i look forward to his comments.
Loebas wrote:but I wonder, are there any styles using single or duel daggers, and nothing else?
some phillipino styles use double daggers i think and there are others such as the thai style krabi krabong which use two short swords/long daggers as well as numerous modern systems some of which have excellent books/videos available.

the best way forward in my opinion is to read and research as much as you can into as many aspects as you feel able to until you have decided on a paricular style that you like or just go with the weapon set that most apeeals to you and go from there, i learned soley based on my love of sai and my experience with knives has helped in that regard as even when sai are used traditionally (i.e. two blunt sai) a lot of the techniques are cross compatable to a degree and when i use a sharp sai sword in practice the knife/sword and sai stlyes are blended to best effect with what is after all an almost unique and little used weapon.

good luck with your research

kind regards

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Lord Crimson
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Post by Lord Crimson » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:18 pm

European dagger arts? what art, pointy end goes in the other guy, there, you're a master of it now

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Banzai Joe
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Post by Banzai Joe » Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:27 am

Lord Crimson wrote:European dagger arts? what art, pointy end goes in the other guy, there, you're a master of it now
hmmmmmmm :? :roll:
lol.....what McDojo are you from again? 8)

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Post by darksun_uk » Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:30 am

Lord Crimson wrote:European dagger arts? what art, pointy end goes in the other guy, there, you're a master of it now
o dear, i hope your joking if not then i suggest you do a search for western martial arts and if not then heres a few books on european marial arts that you should consider....

"The Archeology Of Weapons" - Ewart Oakeshott

"European Weapons And Armour" by Ewart Oakeshott

"Fighting Men" by Henry Treece & Ewart Oakshott

"A Knight And His Horse" by Ewart Oakeshott

"A Knight And His Weapons" by Ewart Oakeshott

"A Knight In Battle" by Ewart Oakeshott

"Records Of The Medieval Sword" - Ewart Oakeshott

"A Sword In Hand" by Ewart Oakeshott

"The Sword In The Age Of Chivalry" - Ewart Oakeshott

"Swords Of The Viking Age" by Peirce, Oakeshott, & Jones

HISTORICAL EUROPEAN SWORDSMANSHIP



Captain A. Gordon's Treatise on Sword, Bayonet, and Pike of 1805 HES

Eigentliche Beschreibung des Fechtens ihm einfachen Rappir - 1619 HES

English Martial Arts by Terry Brown - 2002 HES

"Medieval Combat: A Fifteenth Century Illustrated Manual Of Swordfighting & Close-Quarter Combat" by Hans Talhoffer. (transl. & ed. - Mark Rector)

"Medieval Swordsmanship: Illustrated Methods & Techniques" by John Clements

Mr. Wilson's "Art of Defence" HES

"Schools and Masters of Fence" by E. Castle

"The School of Fencing" by Domenico Angelo

"The Secret History Of The Sword" - J. Christoph Amberger

"Secrets Of German Medieval Swordsmanship: Sigmund Ringeck's Commentaries On Johannes Liechtenauer's Verse"

Skokloster collection HES

"The Medieval Art Of Swordsmanship - A Facsimile & Translation Of Europe's Oldest Personal Combat Treatise: Royal Armouries MS I.33" translated by Jeffrey L. Forgeng, in partnership with The Royal Armouries.

"The Sword and the Centuries" - F.A. Hutton FSA

Thomas Page's Use of the Broad Sword, 1746 HES


"European Weapons And Armour" by Ewart Oakeshott

"Italian Rapier Combat: Capo Ferro's Gran Simulacro" edited by Jared Kirby, Greenhill Books, 2004

"Renaissance Armies: 1480 - 1650" by George Gush.

"Renaissance Swordsmanship: The Illustrated Use Of Rapiers & Cut-and-Thrust Swords" - John Clements

"The Martial Arts Of Renaissance Europe" - Sydney Anglo

"Master of Defense, The Works of George Silver" by Paul Wagner

read a few of those practice for a year or two then i will take what your posting seriously......

kind regards

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Lord Crimson
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Post by Lord Crimson » Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:42 pm

ouch, my humourous comment stands massively corrected.

difficult to find people who practice anything other that pointyendgoesintheotherguy-jutsu I imagine

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Post by Gorilla Warfairy » Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:54 pm

Lord Crimson wrote:ouch, my humourous comment stands massively corrected.
:-o Serious thread, seroius comment :-o

Lord Crimson wrote:difficult to find people who practice anything other that pointyendgoesintheotherguy-jutsu I imagine


If you are refering to the knife-carrying gang culture of the day, yes, if however you are refering to actual martial artists, so to speak, you will find as much to do with keeping knives out of anyone as the other. :cool:

ps, do you have to use that colour, I can't read it on the this blue version of the forum that I use. On second thoughts, leave it like that. :kiss1:

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Lord Crimson
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Post by Lord Crimson » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:00 pm

Gorilla Warfare wrote: ps, do you have to use that colour, I can't read it on the this blue version of the forum that I use. On second thoughts, leave it like that. :kiss1:
Finally, someone comes up with a solution to someone else whose comments they find annoying, I can only hope this practice spreads to other forums.

As a matter of fact I DO have a book on military tactics, and it has a section on knife fighting, I'll post some of it later, mostly defense and the angles of attack

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