Thought on book-taught Arts.

A forum for discussion on all things related to the martial-arts and oriental sword-arts

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Post by Guest » Wed May 04, 2005 1:37 pm

Ive just come back from a grading, so im pretty mullered... but i'll try to address some of the points you've made.

(as im knackered, im just gonna take out blocks of text to reply too)
all thats happening is people are confusing (some on purpose some not) with regards to swords specifically, the desire to cut things, the abilty to cut things, and the abilty to cut things with specific technique correctly, ability at a certain specific technique with a sword within an established sword art with be virtually impossible (i agree with wraith) to attain or progress in if you dont get instructed by a master IN THAT SYSTEM.....
if im correct, you agree with not being able to learn (for example) eishin ryu iaido, from a eishin ryu iaido book. but you still think that its possible to learn something close to iaido (in terms of 'usability') by simply learning some skills found in books.

(i'll put all my answers in italic, so its easier to reference)

the whole reason book teching doesnt work is because of the lack of feedback, and the media being woefully small in the terms of information it can carry....
if you were to try and learn something, looking like iaido, and being usable (from a book, etc). then you'd still have ONLY the finite information carried in books, and if you were to do something wrong... which every beginer on earth does... then you'd not know, as theres no feedback, and keep working those bad movements into your muscles.
if your learning a non-martial art, self defence set of movements... what point is there to working bad techniques into your muscles?
how is using inferior technique 'self defence'?

you also need to remember that martial arts... and the effective techniques contained within them, were refined over hundreds of years... they werent just picked up overnight... theres a reason their so specific, and take proper training to do correctly.

why is having a specific type of technique better?
because the specific techniques of martial arts have been refined through wars, personal experences, changes in socity, and the fact that if they failed, they died. its a tried, and tested form of self defence.
there is, of course exception to this, where the martial arts have been reduced to sports, and the effectiveness swapped for useless point scoring exercises.... but thats a different convo.

so from a purely self defence point of view... having the best technique possible is a good thing. and not training properly for it is just stupid.

so if your saying its possible to train a self defence, rather than a martial art through books. your wrong.

still no feedback.
still to small a media to work with.
failing on the basis that its not, technicly, a martial art, but its just as effective.


i understand wraiths points about training i have trained long and hard to have developed the limited skill i have over thousands of hours calling it a martial art, is according to wraith incorrect and i actually agree with him on that point, my point however is that self defense and military training are NOT MARTIAL ARTS either, using his definitions and therefore huge portions of the worlds population are labouring under a false pretense.
if i understand correctly, your saying that you agree with your training having no 'martial art' merit. and your trying to imply that millitary art, and self defence arts have the same merit as martial arts.

thats correct... self defence is not a martial art.
and millitary training isnt 'martial art' (assuming were only talking about combat based in hand-to-hand, not rifles, and guided missles)

self defence, by definition, is the most effective set of techniques you can use, in todays socity. if your learning how to defend yourself then you still need to LEARN it... in the same way as martial arts, as it happens. by going to instructors.

martial arts ARE self defence, by their very nature. in fact, the only things seperating them are the traditions.
the techniques used in all self defence systems, are martial art techniques. (again, this is subject to the watering down of certain martial arts... again, a different convo).
why do they use martial arts techniques? because, like ive said, their the ones that have been tried and tested.

martial arts cant be learnt from a book.
self defence cant be learnt from a book.

why?

they are the same thing (or at least SHOULD be, by definition)

as for millitary arts (assuming were still talking hand-to-hand) they have a VERY low footing in terms of technical knowlage.

millitary 'jap-slapping' is a low-tech form of self defence. its quick, its nasty, and it has no real level of skill attached to it.... which is fine for what it is, and as a self defence, it works for the millitary..... problem is... its crap in terms of knowlage, and coverage.

no millitary jap-slapping will ever stand up to a real martial art.

so why is this low tech, useless art tought... if its so lacking?

its tought because the soldier MIGHT, in some way, have to use it.....truth is, they probally never will.... the reason being, that a millitary issue rifle will kill at quite a few hundred meters

not much hand-to-hand combat in the age of rifles, helicopters, and intercontinental ballistic missiles

why spend 2 weeks teaching it?

because they have too... a soldier MIGHT need to use those skills... but its very doubtfull.
if it was importent, or conclusive in any way, they would spend a LOT more than 2 weeks teaching it!

it might be better wraith tobe honest if you just say that anyone that is not a regonised master/teacher of an art and who does not pratice or teach for 8 hours a day is not a martial artist merely someone who practices martial arts.
the issue of martial artist, and 'just someone who partakes in a martial arts' is a completely different subject and has nothing to do with how much they train, or at what level they train at.

it also relient on the martial art itself.

but either way, it has nothing to do with learning from a book.


or like in the military someone who has been given a "toolbox" of skills, are you saying that soldiers are not martial artists ?
assuming still that were talking REAL martial arts

soldiers (in hand-to-hand combat terms) are not martial artists... their toolbox is very limited. and their skill level in any sort of 'self defence' system, will fall woefully under a simulary trained martial artist.
does the army in fact not teach there toolbox in a two week course ?
(before i reply, im assuming that the normal millitary stint is subject to a minimum of 3 years.. but i may be wrong)

yes they do teach their toolbox in 2 weeks... and like ive said before... its lacking.
in a minimum time of service they will only learn the 2 week course.... you think that will stand up to much against the same amount of time in a martial art?

is someone who juggles razor sharp knives and chainsaws any less "skilled" than someone that can swing a sword in a very specific way my point is that "skill" and "training" are not universal concepts they are relative to the specific activity in question.
is a juggler of the same skill as a martial artist, in a fight? no. but that is not to say that there is less skill in juggling knives, etc.

there are 2 different skills is action. 1 good for fighting, 1 good for juggling knives, and chainsaws.

using that as a basis for my next comment. (VERY generalised)

"trained martial artists are good for fighting, book trained martial artists are NOT good for fighting, but ARE good at reading. and absorbing the finite knowlage in media."

like you implied... 2 different skill sets!

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Post by darksun_uk » Thu May 05, 2005 8:36 am

Wraith wrote:
is someone who juggles razor sharp knives and chainsaws any less "skilled" than someone that can swing a sword in a very specific way my point is that "skill" and "training" are not universal concepts they are relative to the specific activity in question.
is a juggler of the same skill as a martial artist, in a fight? no. but that is not to say that there is less skill in juggling knives, etc.


ah, now then , all i am saying is that the jugglers skills will have more use in a combat situation than "joe average" thats all and what level of martial artist is the really realvent point as most are just weekend/weeknight dojo fodder not serious martial artists.




Wraith wrote:Ive just come back from a grading, so im pretty mullered... but i'll try to address some of the points you've made.

(as im knackered, im just gonna take out blocks of text to reply too)

all thats happening is people are confusing (some on purpose some not) with regards to swords specifically, the desire to cut things, the abilty to cut things, and the abilty to cut things with specific technique correctly, ability at a certain specific technique with a sword within an established sword art with be virtually impossible (i agree with wraith) to attain or progress in if you dont get instructed by a master IN THAT SYSTEM.....


if im correct, you agree with not being able to learn (for example) eishin ryu iaido, from a eishin ryu iaido book. but you still think that its possible to learn something close to iaido (in terms of 'usability') by simply learning some skills found in books.



no your mis-interpreting what im saying, im saying 3 things in fact not 2 as you imply your missing the central point.(literally)

1.learning from a teacher in a specific art.

2.learning how to handle an edged weapon in a non formal context.

3."learning" everthing from a book having no prior expereince in either of points 1 and 2 listed above.

point 2 is the reference to the orignal quote about "the ability to cut" i hope this is now clear.

my point has (as i hope is now abundently clear) nothing to do with learning anything from a book.




1. i learned my self defense skills from my late stepfather (ex-israeli defense forces) who was taught to instructor level and subsequently did a 6 month tour on "the line of control" in the mid 70's...

2. the toolbox of unarmed skills that i had learned i later had verified as usefull and "correct" by several practivcing martail artist including a black belt in karate and an insrucctor in wing-chun. all of whom i sparred with and aquitted my self well in numerous bouts.

3. the toolbox of edged weapon skill (natural ability) that i have i learned while hunting/gamekeeping and doing forestry work for years and years if your saying that natural abilty with an edged weapon is not possible to realate directly to combat siuation then please say so but as you have never replied to that point i will leave it there.

different levels for different things please or everyone will be confused

what level is your definition of the word martial artist as i can go to my local karate mcdojo once a week for 6 months and call myself a martial artist or i can practice drills and reps with sai and basic punchs and kicks for 4-6 hours a day for a year and call myself "confident" you assume all your definitions are objectivley correct they are not, and i for one do not agree with someof the things you say and belive to be objective truths so i guess further disscusion is pointless on a number of issues.



soldier can mean many things !

self defense student or instuctor ?

is a gurka (with no formal training) likely to be more skilled with an edged weapon than the average raw recruit armed with an army bayonet and the 2 week course.

the answer is obvioulsy yes and as such validates my point about edged weapons being used all over the world without formal training and that use having direct advantage in combat situations ergo it is possible to learn combat skills outside of a formal martial arts setting, how usefull they are is entirley irrelavent to this discussion the fact that they are(in some way) proves my point (the only one i was ever trying to make).



kind regards

Guest

Post by Guest » Thu May 05, 2005 10:33 am

ive just about had enough of this disscussion... it seems were going in ever increasing circles.
bringing in knife jugglers to make the point you have is just wrong... on quite a few levels. and i take your opinions as childish, and ill informed.

its STILL the opinion of every untrained fighter on earth. except, instead of inciting miyamoto musashi... your using ghurka's!

yes, juggling will help.

so will experence in step aerobics, knitting, forestry, football, motor mechanics, and almost anything else you care to mention!

but your missing out the importent bit.... the bit that saves your life.

THE TRAINING.

ive already pointed out the importence of proper training.

but thats not going to matter to you, because miyamoto musashi can do it, and the ghurka's dont have to do a 2 week millitary course. all your other points are mute at best.

as for special training with special forces. its not that special.

ive spent time with the same israeli special forces, US rangers, and Ex members of the SBS, and SAS. ive never had the good luck to train with them (with the exception of the SAS, and SBS), but did get to watch some of their stuff.... ive also had the distinct pleasure of throwing paratroopers, comando's, and a whole host of other millitary personel out of many pubs, and clubs in my time.

their 2 week course didnt help, their other usefull skills didnt help. and 2 sober, fit, large guys that came at me a month ago, and ended up in a pool of their own blood were para's. they stated because i told them they wernt allowed to deal drugs in my venue!

also, talking to ex members of the special forces that have now taken up security jobs, and therefore, better training.... they have all said that their hand-to-hand skills were lacking.... that their system was lacking.... and even at their level... they knowlage is low end.

i really cant be bothered to comment any more on this... im just gonna get "its my party, and i'll cry if i want too"

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Post by darksun_uk » Thu May 05, 2005 4:50 pm

Wraith wrote:i
. and i take your opinions as childish, and ill informed.!
there really is no need to restort to that, you can take my opinions any way you like but i will continue to have faith in what i know to be true through personal experience whether you choose to accept it or not does not make it any less correct, and while we are on the subject of opinion i have never once said that proper training in the weapon of your choice should it be available to you is not the best course of action **shrug** the gurka analogy is a perfectly vaild and relavent point which you choose to paper over with sarcasm and what could be uncharitably termed as self interest (either well meaning or not) that unfortunatley is the case whether you admit it or not.

Wraith wrote: its STILL the opinion of every untrained fighter on earth. except, instead of inciting miyamoto musashi... your using ghurka's!
i was/am trained is it still my opinion or are we talking about someone else ?


Wraith wrote: ive already pointed out the importence of proper training.
i have not said its not important have i ?
Wraith wrote: but thats not going to matter to you, because miyamoto musashi can do it,
perhaps the single most famous swordsman in japanese history was self taught, perhaps his technique was wee wee poor but his zanshin was godlike. lol.
i never though to mention him as he was obviously a "freak" as its inconceivable that someone could have natural skill with a weapon,now who is being sarcastic. eh ?

Wraith wrote: and the ghurka's dont have to do a 2 week millitary course. .
dude my point is that they do have to do it and that anything they learn will not overide a lifetime of muscle memory and learned natural skill now will it ? thus the fearsome reputation of the gurkas in hand to hand fighting has little if anything to do with the army knife fighting course which you and i both know is a pile of pants......thus i make my point...and...

that should require no explanation at all,

how you can/could completley fail to see the point i am making i really dont know it must be your agenda thus making any further disscusion truly pointless.
Wraith wrote: all your other points are mute at best.
nope, sadly most "martial artists" are anything but martial or artists.

you and people like you are the obvious exceptions and i have done door work myself so i know how usefull the training i had was to me the extensive solo training i did merely built on that (reps and bag work+sparring). the amount of contact i had with saturday night "black belts" i am sorry to say has not left me with a particulary rosy impression of the whole area of formally trained fighters who for the most part are as inept as the squaddies that you bounce of the walls of your pub/club.

Wraith wrote: i really cant be bothered to comment any more on this... im just gonna get "its my party, and i'll cry if i want too"
yeah i suppose so.

kind regards

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grimm
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Post by grimm » Sat May 07, 2005 12:25 am

i don't particularly think a lot of wraith's points are valid, i won't write a lengthy response though as it will only be overshadowed by another overly verbose wraith post.

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Post by darkhobo » Sat May 07, 2005 7:30 am

not only did that seem to be an unnecessary attack on wraith, but if you are going to attack someone like that atleast do take the time to right why, instead of saying you wont...

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Post by Guest » Sat May 07, 2005 9:47 am

grimm wrote:i don't particularly think a lot of wraith's points are valid, i won't write a lengthy response though as it will only be overshadowed by another overly verbose wraith post.
interesting disscussion.... full of insightfull comments, and well thought out, intelligent arguement.

not only did that seem to be an unnecessary attack on wraith, but if you are going to attack someone like that atleast do take the time to right why, instead of saying you wont...
yeah.... thankfully, YOUR post gave me a reason to engage my brain enough to write a post.

you'll find (a lot) that people will say things like that because they dont know any better (....if they did, id have a post to reply too)

and its also the defence of people that are attacked. they will deny that i know anything... and nor does anyone else that dissagrees with them.

in the context of this disscussion, if i know nothing... if im wrong... then Grimm can hapily go on learning bottle-do* (or a varient) from his books and back garden. and be quite blissfully unaware of everything that doesnt fit in his comfort zone.

*bottle-do - The almost lost style created to protect the local villagers when roving bands of angry plastic bottles would roll down the hill spreading death and destruction in their wake!

closely linked to book-jutsu, and a whole host of other arts that can be copied (usually badly)... but never understood.

either way...
Darkhobo, thanks for the post.
Grimm, ......ok lad. whatever makes you happy.

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Post by Azeroth_Storm » Sat May 07, 2005 12:42 pm

Wraith wrote:
*bottle-do - The almost lost style created to protect the local villagers when roving bands of angry plastic bottles would roll down the hill spreading death and destruction in their wake!

closely linked to book-jutsu, and a whole host of other arts that can be copied (usually badly)... but never understood.
PMSL :tumbsup:
Regards
Storm

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Post by darksun_uk » Sat May 07, 2005 1:50 pm

Azeroth_Storm wrote:
Wraith wrote:
*bottle-do - The almost lost style created to protect the local villagers when roving bands of angry plastic bottles would roll down the hill spreading death and destruction in their wake!

closely linked to book-jutsu, and a whole host of other arts that can be copied (usually badly)... but never understood.
PMSL :tumbsup:
Regards
Storm
/sarcasm/irony/

funnily enough thats actually quite relavent to the discussion as i would class myself as a uber 1137 grand master (56788th dan) in that exact art and will take on as many student as i can fit inside my huge trousers.

/sarcasm/irony/


seriously though a Lot of martial arts students and teachers from both JSA WMA and other arts use plastic bottles as a cheap training aid to review there blade alignment during a cut plus it is fun to do *shrug*

i guess there not real martial artists then are they ?

or is it ok for people not formally trained or not trained in a japanese stlye of weapon use to use them and for only JSA students to cut mats.?

kind regards

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Post by Azeroth_Storm » Sat May 07, 2005 2:09 pm

/sarcasm/irony/

funnily enough thats actually quite relavent to the discussion as i would class myself as a uber 1137 grand master (56788th dan) in that exact art and will take on as many student as i can fit inside my huge trousers.

/sarcasm/irony/
PMSL again :D
Thanks dudes.
Regards
Storm

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Post by Guest » Sat May 07, 2005 5:26 pm

i gave the last post to reply to a childish set of remarks.

i'll just leave a quick one now to clarify, and close my position.

ive been working the doors for the last 6 years, and have personally been involved in 427 incidents that involved violence (i keep a record). of those, 162 involved weapons (sharps, bottles, bits a wood... whatever). i personally have 6 scars from such weapons.

all of them involved tussles, striking, etc, etc.
> 134 involved light bloodshed (bloody nose, little cuts, etc.)
> 214 of those involved medium bloodshed (broken noses, major cuts due to stamping, and striking.)
> 76 involved serious blodshed (broken limbs, heavy bleeding, paramedic suport, and in 6 cases... coma!)

>and 3 involved death.

the first time it happened, the guy died while i was attending to him.... it was over a pint... and i still have the scar i picked up when i went into the crowd to get him. he died from a wound to the neck... which i was trying to hold shut with my hand.

the second (2 years later) still had the knife jutting out from his ribcage when i pulled him out from the fight he was in. he died while i was securing the blade.

the last guy (1 year after that) died in intensive care 3 days after the incident.... he was stamped to death by 4 guys who didnt even know his name.

this got witnessed by me, my head doorman, and the guys girlfriend.... im not sure what happened to her.

ive lived through all of this, ive seen more violence that i probally should have, and ive spent most of my life training to defend against it, and trying to understand it.... and ive done well, i think.

the only reason im alive, is my training.

the reason im telling anyone this? well, its to point out how my experence has been gained... its not been through some cozy dojo lessons, not through books, not just my idle opinion.

>can you learn how to use a sword through books? No.
>can you learn a martial art through books? No.
>can you learn how to defend yourself through books? No.
>can you learn how to safeguard yourselves from being guy 1, guy 2, or guy 3 by learning from a book, with a few mates, in your back garden? .........NO!

if anyone wonders why im so bothered about health and safty, there it is.

this also answers any questions about my strong opinions, my experence, and quite a few other things, id imagine.

and to drive home my point....

if i had took the path of book/vid/DVD to learn my arts, or how to defend myself.... i would, 100%, not be here today.
and would i ever risk a human life by saying its feasable, or condone it? .....hell no! for all the reasons above, and more.

its that simple.

of course.... Darksun will now post something like "in your opinion"

... yeah, in my opinion. and the opinion of the scars i have, and blood that never comes out in the wash!

i think ive said all i can..... so im bored of this conversation now. i wont argue, just for the sake of it.

Angelus

Post by Angelus » Sat May 07, 2005 7:22 pm

Right, this is getting out of hand now with people just arguing for the sake of arguing. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and everyone is entitled to express them, this arguing has gone on long enough and is just causing people to get angry which results in flame posting. Thread locked

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