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wtf?
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Postby wtf? » Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:10 pm

i have been working on hardend steel for years with grinders and files and sandpaper yeah its harder but i dont have to heat treat.


yeah... me too... but never if i could find another way. and heat treating isnt that hard once you get to know it. but for a beginer, its not a issue... use annealed steel, and pay for the heat treat... for a large blade i know someone who will do it for £12 (£8 for a small.) which isnt much considering the time you'll save.

i mean i run a 2x72, with a 4bhp motor, and trying to grind hardened steel on that is a right pain. polishing... hell yeah. a godsend. but not major shaping on hard steels.... its not worth it AT ALL.

i agree with beginner comment but the how to guides i followed and my own personal experience is that stock removal on already heat treated steel is viable and worthwhile at least for me anyway i have used sandpaper to polish hard steel and have had good results...as for files the ones i have (my grandads old ones) seem to cut just fine *shrug*


files will cut hardened steel... but if your talking blade profiling, they would take one HELL of a beating. they will cut... but its not something a beginer should try. too much effort for too little experience. the sandpaper works well, i'll agree on hardened steels, but ONLY for polishing.. which is a minor thing after filing a hardened slab of steel... plus im not sure... but i dont think you can buy hardened blank stock.... pretty sure its all annealed. although i'll stand to be corrected... but i think that considering ive found only annealed steels in 3 years, and no hardened steels... im gonna say its not avalible. and theres a good reason for that.

plus as you have said... sand papers polish, not remove material (ala, profiling). as you've not profiled a blade from scratch with the above tools, you have got the experience to make comments about how its done, or how a beginer might go about it.

not in my experience but then i dont do that much rough shaping so im not really 100% on that issue.


well then. lol

if you havent rough shaped with a grinder, you cant really expect to comment on rough shaping on a grinder with any degree of certainty.

i have, and if you try to profile on hardened steel, using a grinder, you'll have to dress the wheels a LOT. you'll also experience extra heat build-up as it will take twice the effort/time to grind the same amount of hard steel, as it would soft... meaning you'll possibly destroy the heat treatment (as youve warned against). so as a matter of course... you'll need to spend as little time as possible on the grinder to limit that risk.... heat treated steel will take 'double' the time, and create 'double' the risk. possible for the experienced if they know how to handle that risk... hardly worth it for a starter. even experienced makers (as i understand them) do everything before heat treating for this exact reasoning

things need to be kept as simple as possible, and why spend time worrying about heat treatments, risk management, and working extra hard steels with hand tools, plus wheel dressing... when you can just pay £8 - £12 ???

well much easier is a misnomer as heat treating yourself is vastly more complex and timeconsuming.

sending away for heatreat could easily cost more vrs the benifit especially with starter pieces...

that would be the best option though if cost is not really an issue.


.just my opinon though based on what i have done and read etc,


aye... i wouldnt heat treat yourself straight off... just cus its a hard thing to learn. although you DO need to start somewhere. you dont wanna be taking on 2 new skills at a time.

im not sure id say heat treating is expensive... £8 for a 8ich and below blade. (hardened to your specs, tripple tempered by a pro) or £12 for anything above 8inches, below 18inches... cheap as hell. and thats assuming you cant get a local place to do it. heres a metalworker near me that will harden it to my spec for a fiver, and another fiver to temper it... although you can do that yourself in a hot oven. (though it takes longer)

for blades above those lengths... i got the local guy to teach me, and harden a large section of steel for £40... to do it himself... £20. so i basicly paid £20 for a lesson as well. which was for about 2 hours speaking to someone who does it for a living... learnt a lot. so theres plenty of options.

and if you've managed to make a nice blade. i wouldnt want to risk bodging it cus you screwed the heat treatment during manufacture, and i wouldnt mind paying £20 to make sure its finished correctly. add to this... you'll find it a lot easier to make it in the first place.

just my lil info. and im curently trying to make blades for general sale. waiting on some capital. making my blanks up for starting stock, and looking for a bigger location to work from. my grinders are starting to take over every inch of space i own.... which is my experience with such things.

im currently trying to finish a bowie for a forum member here, in damascus, and another wants to come down and make his own (with my help)... i believe a large fixed blade knife.

*edit*
l know what you mean when you say that but if you know what your doing then its not that bad,course you have to know what wood is good for what, l know what im looking for most of the time like when l made a load of stone axes (the heads were slate, im going to try some flint ones soon) and as long as you know the laws of the land for where your taking the wood from then your usually ok.


yeah...i was more on about the drying, and curig, etc... very time consming.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Postby darksun_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:21 am

good points, i suppose the real issue here is what your gaining from the activity if its a casual hobby thing then starting with wood and working towards steel with an eye to gettting the heat treat done by a third party is the most productive option,

my main focus has been reshaping blades and smaller already heat treated pieces which if your carefull (not to overheat the workpiece) and have the time (working on them does take longer) is possible and enjoyable and will produce reasonable (some would say good) quality items.

my only concern with the point about cheap heat treating etc is that the poster is in the USA and depending on his location etc shipping costs could be an issue more so than in this country.


while i have ground some profiles on smaller pieces your right in saying that it is not really practical for production items however for a hobby option im not so sure its not a least worth investigating it depends on what your workpiece is like to start with, for example making knives from old saw blades and so forth which i understand is a fairly common starting point for many hobbyist smiths as the size of the heat treated steel blank can be mananged to reasonable levels within the criteria we have indentified.




kind regards
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Postby wtf? » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:56 am

for most... even though they will work on hardened steels, they will get it annealed. ive worked on files myself, and got good reasults... but i need to anneal it forst to grind it down. same with anything. i simply dont waste my time when i can get a cheap job done on annealment, and start from scratch.

as for the location... fair point. being american means that theres a lot more avalible. the countrys a lot bigger, and has more to offer. heat treating isnt a special thing... its heating metal to a certain temp, and quenching it. and may makers will do this for a minimal charge. i havent enquired for obvious reasons about pricing, but Fremont will no doubt check. also... its basicly a engineering job, so they would take on the work for little money. its not expensive at all... its just that the equiptment is.

cant see it here, so i'll ask... which state you from?

i know of about 40 knifemakers all over the US that would help you out, for a small fee. and their pretty common i find.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Postby Sir Fremont » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:38 am

wtf? wrote:cant see it here, so i'll ask... which state you from?

i know of about 40 knifemakers all over the US that would help you out, for a small fee. and their pretty common i find.


missouri smacc dab in the middle not far from arkansas kansas or oklahoma

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Postby wabhimself » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:11 am

aw. l get you now wtf. see l just really make things for short term right now until l get better at it so l dont bother with all that.

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Postby wtf? » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:34 am

Sir Fremont wrote:
wtf? wrote:cant see it here, so i'll ask... which state you from?

i know of about 40 knifemakers all over the US that would help you out, for a small fee. and their pretty common i find.


missouri smacc dab in the middle not far from arkansas kansas or oklahoma


ok.....
i know your not looking to make blades now... but i'll check about and see what resourses are near you in case you may need them at a point furtherdown the road.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Postby wtf? » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:24 pm

ok... i was just in the workshop making up some blanks, and i thought id check this out.

ive got a millitary issue machete, circa 1945 that snapped about 8 months ago.. its been sitting in my workshop cus i use it as a scraper. so i thought id try to see what would happen should i introduce it to differing tools.

i tested it, and its between 55, and 60rc. (used hardness testing files)

i first tried it on a 550w heavy duty bench grinder on a 200mm wheel, at 2850rpm (on both coarse, and medium)
then on a 550w heavy duty bench grinder on a 200mm wheel at 2850rpm (on a extra coarse, and fine wheel)
then on a 2x48 belt grinder at 1.5hp, with a 50grit band, on a 5inch contact wheel, running at at 1750rpm
then on a 2x72 belt grinder, 40grit, at well over 2700rpm (closer to 3000) run by a 4hp motor, on a 8inch contact wheel

...if it were annealed steel the 2x72 would simply tear it apart.and make very short work

throughout all this, i will catogoricly state that its impossible to make a blade out of a hardened piece of steel effectively. if you were to try it with a bench grinder you'd break the tool, and ruin 10-12 wheels in the process. of this i am possitive.... as for hand tools, like files... not a chance in hell! absolutely no way on earth... no disscussion! it MAY be possible on the 2x72. but thats a £750 grinder, with bands costing £6-12 each budget, and £10-£20 high end... of which you'd need about 30! and if i were asked to do it, id demand £300 straight off to replace the motor, platen, and contact wheel. theres also a mild chance id have to replace the bearing unit due to excess heat buildup.

(although it would be cheaper in the US, as i had to import the grinder. bands run about $7 each for budget ones, and double for top end bands. cheaper for any circumstance if bought in bulk)

its not feasable in the least.

also, the heat generated by the most efficient tool (the 2x72) was astronomical in comparison. and would have, no doubt, destroyed the heat treat over time.

so in closing... Sir Fremont... regardless of what DS has said here... its not possible to make a blade from hardenened steel with a $40 grinder, and hand tools. you'd have just as much of a chance builing the golden gate bridge out of chocolate.... sorry Darksun.
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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

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Postby darksun_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:45 pm

wtf? wrote: its impossible to make a blade out of a hardened piece of steel effectively..


but it is possible.

wtf? wrote:. regardless of what DS has said here... its not possible to make a blade from hardenened steel with a $40 grinder,


it is possible (see first quote above) just not effective (as you state yourself)if the piece is a small thin section saw blade then yes it is possible and if u have nothing else then why not im not saying its ideal or even desirable to do just that it is possible, i have reshaped the tangs and lower blade sections on hard steel blades there is some effort involved and the heat is not that bad (certainly not hot enough to damage the heat treat) you just have to go really really slowly i.e. not worth the effort if its a commercial project...because your not going to get any kind of reasonable hourly rate from selling the product etc etc...the reason i have sold and do offer sai swords for sale is because i love the concept and making them etc as a business it sucks lol 8) .if i could not do it none of my dozen or so sai swords would exsist.....

the best way to learn is to go with soft steel then get it heat treated professionally its that simple, however depending on your specific circumstances other options are possible just not economically feasable but then not everthing comes down to money does it.




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Postby wtf? » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:06 pm

well... im saying that if you were to take a hardened piece of steel, and try to use a hand tool, you would spend roughly 3 weeks trying to profile it, and destroy many files in the process... yes it is possible. but in the same way its possible to sharpen a sword with a nail file... its basicly a stupid idea. and i know this because i have actualy made blades. and tried (only hours ago) what you have suggested. and with profecional grade tools.

if someone who can make knives, and has made knives. who uses heavy duty tools suggests its a VERY bad idea. then im afraid im gonna listen to him.

your sai swords arnt manufactured by you. you take blades and modify them, and as such your forte, and expereince is with modification. mine is with taking a plain piece of steel, profiling it, shaping it, creating a blade, then heat treating it, polishing it, then making fittings, and creating something from scratch.

you sai swords arnt made by you. their made by other people, and you modify them. thats like me taking a bare blade, making a handle, swithcing a guard, and saying i make the whole thing... no, i wouldnt, i added, and modified. and as such, i cant comment on how the blade would be best made. because quite simply... i havent made one.

unless im wrong, and you stock remove, or forge steel to create a blade from a piece of steel, then treat, and polish it, then add other fittings you have made yourself... then i'll retract the above.

if you would like to take a hardened saw blade, or other piece of steel, and use your own hand tools, bench grinders, belt grinders, etc to get other reasults, your more than welcome to chalenge my own... we'll compare notes. and i'll try to work out why my equiptment could hardly mark the steel, when yours could!

im not sure what your doing with a file, and small 'sai sword' blades. but i wouldnt consider it 'making anything'.
from what i can see, its taking a blade, and a sai, cutting off the sai handle and spike, drilling, and milling a tang shaped hole in it, and making a handle. the lot then gets glued together. so unless your MAKING the blade, and MAKING the sai section... all your really doing is mixing bits, and making handles... which means your MAYbe qualified to speak on how a handle should be made, and how to mill out a tang shaped hole in a premade object... oh... and how to use an angle grinder (to cut the sai into the right parts)

to add detail to the previous post... to remove about half a MM of material along the spine of this machette with the grinder took me 10 minutes. and to make it a bowie tipped blade took me 45 minutes with a belt grinder (2x72) running at just over 3000rpm.

thats 18000 feet per minute.
for 45 minutes

810,000 feet of grinding material total... the band wasnt touching ALL the time. so lets (for fun) half that number.

405'000 feet of grinding to get a shape thats roughly a bowie shaped (in the TIP only). so assuming you had a 12inch long file, and used its ENTIRE length, you would have to make 405'000 passes at it... and remember thats assuming out of 45 mins, that i was only working for half of it. so feel free to add another two hundred thousand passes with a file, or so! i also tore up a band doing it.... god knows what would happen to a file after a couple of thousand passes. let alone up to six hundred!

so i dont really care what you say DS... its a stupid idea to use hardened steel. the same job on annealed steel would have taken a few mins. and this is just the rough shape... nowhere near making a cutting edge... thats a BLANK tip.

as for "if it wasnt possible then my 12 sai swords wouldnt exist"... well... that made me chuckle.

if it wasnt for other people making blades for you, and making sai for you, then they wouldnt exist at all!
i find it funny that a MAKER, and possibly creator of sai swords is reliant on other people to make the sai, and sword, for him. :S

so in the words 'Darksuns Sai Swords' you havent made the sword, you havent made the sai, and your parents are responsible for the darsun part... so you havent really contributed much, as far as i can see. and you certainly havent made anything... except a handle.... you've definately made a handle. thats yours... a handle he made... yeah... handle.

to sum up..... :S

*EDIT*
just mentioned this to my dad, and got him to sit down and read some of it.

he used to make knives for a living, and used to be an engineer in a gun factory. most of his life has been spent working with steel in some way, shape, or form. and more importantly, has direct experience with such things. he used to work in a birmingham gun quarter on price street, and vesey street. and did of lot of work for someone associated with purdys in the way of rough manufacture, and proofing. although he cant remember who it was (outsourced work, and it was over 35 years ago)

so in things like this... he's very knowlegeable.... and is the one to teach me a lot of what i know.

after reading this, id love to tell you what he said. but its not suitable for a public forum. he's older than both of us put together, and knows more, and has more experience that both of us put together. not reading books, or in a gun club, or knife club... a maker, and engineer. of both knives, and firearms and after laughing a bit, his responces were the same as mine, and those that werent cant be put on a forum. thought that might be of interest.

hardly an objective outsider... but someone who has done more than both of us bby hand. not by reading.
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Postby darksun_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:09 pm

wtf? wrote: i cant comment on how the blade would be best made. because quite simply... i havent made one.


i wanted to make a specific type of weapon which i can clearly see is not made by anyone else i also have little interest in actually making a blade as its a time consuming process therefore i directed my effots to produce a sword from carefully selected parts and put most of my effort into making the best weapon possible within the parameters of my original desgn idea.




wtf? wrote:if you would like to take a hardened saw blade, or other piece of steel, and use your own hand tools, bench grinders, belt grinders, etc to get other reasults, your more than welcome to chalenge my own... we'll compare notes. and i'll try to work out why my equiptment could hardly mark the steel, when yours could!


making a small knife etc is perfectly possible i have seen ones that people have made yes it took ages but thats not the point lol.





wtf? wrote:im not sure what your doing with a file, and small 'sai sword' blades. but i wouldnt consider it 'making anything'.
from what i can see, its taking a blade, and a sai, cutting off the sai handle and spike, drilling, and milling a tang shaped hole in it, and making a handle. the lot then gets glued together. so unless your MAKING the blade, and MAKING the sai section... all your really doing is mixing bits, and making handles... which means your MAYbe qualified to speak on how a handle should be made, and how to mill out a tang shaped hole in a premade object... oh... and how to use an angle grinder (to cut the sai into the right parts)


um, you just described a complex series of interlinking processes resulting in a specifically designed product if that is not making something i dont know what is, and for the record i am qualified in making sai swords in this fashion the only reson i dont make the blades is because fundamentally it would not add anything to the finished product that i dont get from a bought blade+ i dont have any interest in actually making the blades anyway or indeed the space to do it in.


wtf? wrote:so i dont really care what you say DS... its a stupid idea to use hardened steel.


if your read my posts you will find that i mentioned the possiblity only in reference to online guides and so forth that i have seen relating to the issues involved and my own experience would suggest that it is possible for small knives etc which is the only reason i mentioned it.

i am only talking about grinding a few mm away on the blank then what is the problem with that i would go and experiment myself but just from the grinding of the hard steel i have done with a bench grinder i know its possible (very very time consuming but still possible you admit this yourself in your eariler posts)

also i make the point that this method is by far NOT the preffered option but it is possible if nothing else presents itself,

3 or 4 cuts (using carefull light dipping motions to not overheat the steel and with some cold water handy as well) with an angle grinder on a saw blade(the thickness is not the issue its as thick as its going to be apart from the bevel of the edge=virtually no profiling at all) and then a quick run through a power sharpner followed by hand sharpening and maybe a bit of polishing= a knife blade...
add the handle and bobs your uncle i have seen knives made this way....
.




wtf? wrote:as for "if it wasnt possible then my 12 sai swords wouldnt exist"... well... that made me chuckle.

if it wasnt for other people making blades for you, and making sai for you, then they wouldnt exist at all!
i find it funny that a MAKER, and possibly creator of sai swords is reliant on other people to make the sai, and sword, for him. :S


im reliant on my own mind and creativity to get the parts made to exact specifications and then carefully assemble them whilst making a lot of the fittings from scratch.

not to mention the balance issue which for a sai is critically important but having never made a sai sword you would not understand that, how long do you think it would take you to make all the fittings and assemble one how would you know how to balance it ? think very carefully about your answer..






wtf? wrote:so in the words 'Darksuns Sai Swords' you havent made the sword, you havent made the sai, and your parents are responsible for the darsun part... so you havent really contributed much, as far as i can see. and you certainly havent made anything... except a handle.... you've definately made a handle. thats yours... a handle he made... yeah... handle.

to sum up..... :S


i have not made anything lol, priceless, the fittings alone on one sword take hours to shape and polish etc

i take it you dont want one in trade for that knife then if you have such a low opinion of them (without having seen one let alone handled it ) which based on nothing more than a few pictures seems a very harsh and unreasonable attitude to take, not to mention the fact that to truly understand everything that went into one (and in order to render an informed opinion) you would have to have a LOT of expereience with sai or be able to ask someone who does for an opinion.





kind regards

wtf? wrote: but i wouldnt consider it 'making anything'.


wtf? wrote:i find it funny that a MAKER, and possibly creator of sai swords


say what ? this is adding to the mountain of confusion that you appear to be lost at the summit of in relation to my very simple and easily verified points none of which where directed at you or indeed anything you make specifically none of which you have posted pictures of as yet i dont think. then perhaps i could critique them in the same manner you have my work i.e. from pictures with in your case no specific knowledge of the weapon type.







wtf? wrote:*EDIT*
just mentioned this to my dad, and got him to sit down and read some of it.

he used to make knives for a living, and used to be an engineer in a gun factory. most of his life has been spent working with steel in some way, shape, or form. and more importantly, has direct experience with such things. he used to work in a birmingham gun quarter on price street, and vesey street. and did of lot of work for someone associated with purdys in the way of rough manufacture, and proofing. although he cant remember who it was (outsourced work, and it was over 35 years ago)

so in things like this... he's very knowlegeable.... and is the one to teach me a lot of what i know.

after reading this, id love to tell you what he said. but its not suitable for a public forum. he's older than both of us put together, and knows more, and has more experience that both of us put together. not reading books, or in a gun club, or knife club... a maker, and engineer. of both knives, and firearms and after laughing a bit, his responces were the same as mine, and those that werent cant be put on a forum. thought that might be of interest.

hardly an objective outsider... but someone who has done more than both of us bby hand. not by reading.


im not sure exactly what that adds to the issue at hand as i think (as i have stated above) that the minor points i made in relation to very specific issues relating to grinding small amount of hard steel which i know to be perfectly possible as i would not have been able to make my sai swords if it was not *shrug* unless your dad has any specific knowledge of sai or sai sword construction i fail to see how anything he says realting to there construction would be of use.
Last edited by darksun_uk on Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:28 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Angelus

Postby Angelus » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:25 pm

Simmer down guys, we are not going to get into another DS vs Wtf? row, you both have different opinions on this subject based on differing experience. You've both offered your knowledge, what the poster chooses to do now is up to him. Personally I would advise passing him your email addresses for further discussion because if this thread continues on like this it will be severly edited by me.

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Postby wtf? » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:22 pm

wanted to make a specific type of weapon which i can clearly see is not made by anyone else i also have little interest in actually making a blade as its a time consuming process therefore i directed my effots to produce a sword from carefully selected parts and put most of my effort into making the best weapon possible within the parameters of my original desgn idea.


ah sorry... i was talking in relation to your experience... i was refering to making a blade. you havent made a blade (as far as i know) you've modded one, and played with them to an extent... but i cant recall you ever taking a slab of metal and working it into a knife. so therefore, you cant coment on taking a slab of metal, and making a knife out of it.... which is what were on about.

i can see exactly HOW to make one. its a simple job. the very second i saw it, i went about making one (in my head) and its a simple process. although instead of using glue, i would opt for a traditional tuska contruction. and i would thin the sai section down, and re-blue it... or actually... i dont think sai are blued. so i would take off the black coating and blue them.

making a small knife etc is perfectly possible i have seen ones that people have made yes it took ages but thats not the point lol.


your still welcome to test for yourself and post contradictory evidence. like i said. if you make blades, then you'll have the equiptment about to test such things... otherwise, you giving opinion as fact... do it, and give evidence

heres the bowie as is now (had to use a borrowed webcam, sorry) took 45 mins to rough shape that tip with huge tools (see earlier posts) and another 2hrs to get is as it is in that pic... the whole job for such a dog-rough shaping should have been 30mins.

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how long has it taken you? show me some evidence of how you can work hardened steel, or leave it alone. opinion, and reading a book, or website isnt fact... give us your experience, as ive just done, and show me. get on the grinders, and test it out. prove me wrong... otherwise as a wise man once said "knowledge without wisdom is as books carried on the back of an ass" (think it was moon, and a jap proverb.)

(also bear in mind that this is a 63year old piece of steel, worked on for a couple of hours with minimal effort, and care... and its seen a world war... i consider myself good, but im not a miricle worker so yes... its looks pap, but im just proving a point)


um, you just described a complex series of interlinking processes resulting in a specifically designed product if that is not making something i dont know what is, and for the record i am qualified in making sai swords in this fashion the only reson i dont make the blades is because fundamentally it would not add anything to the finished product that i dont get from a bought blade+ i dont have any interest in actually making the blades anyway or indeed the space to do it in.


i would... like most other people, say that making something... like sword (normal, or sai varity) would be taking raw materials, and shaping them into (in this case) swords. the example is above. i MADE that from a slab of metal. if i were to take a sword, and grind it differently... im not making a sword... im taking a sword that SOMEONE ELSE made, and im modding it.
all you do is add a 'sai tsuba' which would take me, at a guess... a few days at most.

in fact, im off to dragonfly forge later this year. and i'll be bringing back a wak that i'll be making. folded cable steel. i dont care for waks so heres what im going to do....

i'll take it, and a sai, i'll cut the sai apart, mill out the right size hole. reshape the sai section to be more slimlined, and make a traditional tsuka core, then wrap it. i got some old PPK fittings here i can throw on for it.

i would have MADE the blade, MADE the handle, and MODDED a sai.... see how that works?
you can them tell me how we both made the swords. and heres the good bit. i will let you come down, and use all this equiptment, just for the fun, and you can show me JUST how you MAKE your blades.... from the raw materials. i'll supply cable for folding, or some 1080 for stock removal (unless you have another steel preference). you can MAKE your swords... unless you dont that is... and you just buy them! theres an offer to find out.

as for complex series of whatever... their not complex!!! i do this stuff every day. i could take anyone on these boards... ANYONE, and teach them in 2 days how to make sai swords by modding other peoples work. you cant bulls*it a bullshi*ter, chief.

am only talking about grinding a few mm away on the blank then what is the problem with that i would go and experiment myself but just from the grinding of the hard steel i have done with a bench grinder i know its possible (very very time consuming but still possible you admit this yourself in your eariler posts)


see... this is where you fall down... a few MM's isnt stock removing a knife is it? its removing a few MM's.
were talking about making a blade... and your commenting even though you've never done it. you can grind hard steel down on a bench grinder... thats not in question. what im saying is that making a knife this way (in my experience) is almost impossible. and its not a good idea to suggest such things to a beginer, i wouldnt have though. but thats the first thing out of your mouth.

you dont make knives, and you dont stock remove. but you give advice on how a beginer might go about it. and whats best, then go into defending your opinion against someone who has just gone outside and bloody done it!

like i said earlier... prove me wrong, or your opinions are worthless. without proof, your words carry no water.

do it
test out what youve said
get the experience.
post based on that experience.

this is the first time ive ever tried to stock remove a blade from hardened steel. and im posting based on that... how many blades have you made via stock removing hardened steel? how many slabs of flat steel have you taken, and shaped into something like ive shown above? not bought and modified... actually made from scratch?

none? no? then dont comment on it... its dangerous!

if your read my posts you will find that i mentioned the possiblity only in reference to online guides and so forth that i have seen relating to the issues involved


so reference them... dont bloody argue with me about how im wrong and your right. you dont know what your on about... youve not DONE what were talking about... you've read about it, on the net.

im reliant on my own mind and creativity to get the parts made to exact specifications and then carefully assemble them whilst making a lot of the fittings from scratch.

not to mention the balance issue which for a sai is critically important but having never made a sai sword you would not understand that, how long do you think it would take you to make all the fittings and assemble one how would you know how to balance it ? think very carefully about your answer..


what fittings from scratch? cus you dont make the blades, nor the sai section. so what fittings?

i dont make fittings, i buy them. as of yet, i cant make fushi, and kashira very well. but it would take me 4 days to wrap a tsuka core, and another day to make on in the first place. a day to mill out a sai section, and another to slim it down (absolute max times here). so a week i would guess at. but i have superior tools for such things. so i can do things faster. but as im not sure what fittings you make... i cant comment. i now i can make basic fittings in under a day. but nothing that would cause a riot. and by fittings, i mean traditional japanese metal fittings for tsuka.

as for balance... not sure, havent done one. but this isnt about time involved in the slightest... i cant remember ever saying anything about how long it takes to 'make' one. but i can remedy all this later... ala dragonfly, and a hand forged blade.

that, would take me a week to forge, and maybe 2 to polish. but the answers are above and if their innaccurate... you can come show me (invitation above).

i have not made anything lol, priceless, the fittings alone on one sword take hours to shape and polish etc

i take it you dont want one in trade for that knife then if you have such a low opinion of them (without having seen one let alone handled it ) which based on nothing more than a few pictures seems a very harsh and unreasonable attitude to take, not to mention the fact that to truly understand everything that went into one (and in order to render an informed opinion) you would have to have a LOT of expereience with sai or be able to ask someone who does for an opinion.


hours... whole hours?

i would imagine so. takes me the best part of a week to make, and wrap a tsuka, and thats with the metal parts made for me... so im not sure why your putting an emphasis on a couple of hours. and for making a blade from scratch... could take me up to a month.

and i do, and dont want one of your blades. i personally dont rate your skill in making such things... which is strangely why i also want one. parts only cost me about £30 for a decent knife, so its not like im paying much for it. i think a grim interest is more at play, rather than a keen want.

as for opinion... dont care for sai... never have. nor would i render an opinion on one... but engineering, and weapon contruction... THAT i have experience on, as does my dad, and we'd both like to render an opinion on that. im sorry to say, but the sai would see a grisly end as it would be broken down to its component parts, and as my interest lies in construction... id basicly be reverse engineering one for fun... i could even make a comparison between yours, and mine (in the long run). and to be honest... thats the only reason id want it... to break it up.

none of which you have posted pictures of as yet i dont think. then perhaps i could critique them in the same manner you have my work i.e. from pictures with in your case no specific knowledge of the weapon type.


sadly, this is true.

my blades so far have been my own buisness im sorry to say. the reason for which, should you care. is that im trying to make a buisness from selling them. and i have no camera. ive had to pay out £1700 for a radius master, £2000 for custom bands, and £750 for a coote in the last few months, and as such cant afford the £800 camera i want for photographing them.

so instead of playing about with forums, and such things. im focusing on getting the workshop up to a production level, making blanks ready for sale, and getting training (dragonfly (another £2k), and practice). when im done with that... the hard bit. i'll be getting a camera, and finishing off a set of blades to photo and put on the newly made site. also... pass around blades for review. with everything else going on, photo's for a forum are the least of my worries. lol

but i have tried to take a pic for this occasion to mark my point. although its on a borrowed webcam. i didnt put any effort into it because its not worth it. i might make it into a proper blade at some point, and then not only can you see it... i'll post it to you for scrutiny. you can then send it to whomever for them to look at, ad infinitum.

i also havent commented on their quality. ive simply stated that you havent made them, merely assembled them, with SLIGHT moddification. and said that i wouldnt comment until id taken one apart.

dad bit

well... he wasnt commenting on your sai swords. i never even came close to saying so. he was commenting on stock removing a blade from hardened steel using a grinder, and hand tools... which he has a mass of experience with.... so y'know... THATS how its relivent. i didnt even mention your sword things untill i had to reply about them, or reference them after you have... check my posts... not a word said until YOU mention them.
Image

God i LOVE these things.



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Im not sure what weapons will be used to fight WWIII, but i know that WWIV will be waged with wooden sticks.

Angelus

Postby Angelus » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:46 pm

Wtf? Refer back to my post, there is a difference between debates and trying to provoke arguments. I'm not having another huge argument again thread locked.

Sir Freemont, sorry about all of this, it kicks off sometimes. I would suggest that you get the email addresses of those involve, you can then get knowledge provided by both of them without the argument. Email addresses may be listed on their profiles, if not you can email them through the forum.


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