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darksun_uk
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Post by darksun_uk » Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:47 pm

Wraith wrote:fair enough.
cool.

Wraith wrote: sai, or straight bladed swords have never been looked into by myself, as far as martial function are concerned. (hence the questions)
thats fine, any more spring to mind dont hesitate to ask.


Wraith wrote: im of the thinking that the main use of the weapon is its nature (ie, in your weapons, the main function, to me, is as a sword. so it would have more design features from a sword.... but that would be my take on it... your obviously coming from the other direction)

right i think i get your point here however i will try to explain my view a little more

the design remit came about originally after i saw a picture of a sai guard mounted on a WWII era bayonet

in other words i am designing from a sai point of view out toward a sword not the other way....so its sai first sword second for example the kata with a sai are fundamentally the same except that you have to bear in mind the following


one edge is now sharp a "live" side

the sword tip extends beyond your elbow (extra weapon functionality)

any flipping of the sai (as you will see in my vids) must be 100% correct or things can get messy.

the blocks and strikes within sai kata are now cuts and thrusts and the parrying is more sword orientated than before.

thats the idea in a nutshell and i think thats what you where getting at in your last post


i hope you can see that a wakizashi to sai (or any short sword form) would present more problems than the approach i have taken although its still more than possible to do/adapt.

kind regards

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Post by Guest » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:01 pm

fair enough, but as a competent martial artist, i will have to "point out" one thing....

"any flipping of the sai (as you will see in my vids) must be 100% correct or things can get messy."

in a combative situation, the more dramatic, and dynamic the technique, the less chance it has of being combat effective, and if only 95% proficiency is achived, things go wrong, then the technique is flawed.

in combative situations, its impossible to get 100% so its possible that such a advanced weapoin will cause yourself injury.... the "flippy, and showy" techniques in kata's are never used in real situations.

basics rule the roost.

(again, not a dig, but a curiosity, and a point of disscussion)

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Post by darksun_uk » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:32 pm

Wraith wrote:fair enough, but as a competent martial artist, i will have to "point out" one thing....

"any flipping of the sai (as you will see in my vids) must be 100% correct or things can get messy."

in a combative situation, the more dramatic, and dynamic the technique, the less chance it has of being combat effective, and if only 95% proficiency is achived, things go wrong, then the technique is flawed.

in combative situations, its impossible to get 100% so its possible that such a advanced weapoin will cause yourself injury.... the "flippy, and showy" techniques in kata's are never used in real situations.

basics rule the roost.

(again, not a dig, but a curiosity, and a point of disscussion)

yeah i meant the showy ones really (the double ones in particular) and to an extent the vertical (electra) ones.



the basic defensive to offensive flipp is done in about 0.5 of a second and should be second nature to anyone who practices sai after a few hundred hours or so and as such it is part of kata and fully intergrated into the "art" as taught and demostrated in books etc.

anyone not 100% on the basic (i.e. not got the muscle memory) flipp should not use a sharp sai as a sai untill they are.

the basic flipp:-

sai held in "mid gate" defensive position.
Image

grip is released whilst thumb provides motive force for flipp

Image

midd flipp (this should be to fast to see) the grip is being reformed
Image

full offensive gripp is established approx 0.5 of a second after the move started.
Image


thats the basic move which is performed at a few different angles at speed as part of sai defense and offensive kata (gripping striking and blocking all use the same basic movement)

the more showy flipps come much later and are limited in there martial effectiveness although to demomstrate your level of skill with a sai they are still valid (should give joe numpty with a screwdriver pause for thought)

kind regards

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Post by Guest » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:46 pm

i can basicly manuvere a sai. (can manuvere one into a striking position, and change from shaft extended, to shaft retreating as quickly as needed) i just dont know anything more than that. (my knowlage comes from a fumio demura book, and some idle curiositys, mixed with other weapon systems)

during basic study into them, ive never really seen the combat effectiveness in them.

they did, however, lead me to discover the jutte. and for that, i have to give them credit. lol

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Post by darksun_uk » Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:09 pm

Wraith wrote:i can basicly manuvere a sai. (can manuvere one into a striking position, and change from shaft extended, to shaft retreating as quickly as needed) i just dont know anything more than that.
add the strike at the end or imagine a retreat blocks an incoming fist or foot (there fist/foot hits steel) and your some way to getting the effective use of these weapons.

not to mention the prongs as gouges and trapps and the butt as an aid to punches and the blade struck across the forearm or shin (ouch) or the point struck into the temple,throat, eyes, sub sternal notch or virtually anywhere else...

Wraith wrote: (my knowlage comes from a fumio demura book,
everything from a lifetime of sai use is in that book it does however require a massive investment of time to reveal the truly devastating nature of the weapons system (imho). i am probably in the 2-3 thousand of hours practiced now.

Wraith wrote: during basic study into them, ive never really seen the combat effectiveness in them.
its takes the basics to be absorbed before the fluid execution of technique opens up the "meat" of the system.again thats my opinion and coming from someone (me) who never really "got" the point about nunchaks (despite putting a good couple of hundred hours into them) i guess personal preference has a lot to do with it 8)

Wraith wrote: they did, however, lead me to discover the jutte. and for that, i have to give them credit. lol
well i cant argue with that 8)

kind regards

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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:58 am

add the strike at the end or imagine a retreat blocks an incoming fist or foot (there fist/foot hits steel) and your some way to getting the effective use of these weapons.

not to mention the prongs as gouges and trapps and the butt as an aid to punches and the blade struck across the forearm or shin (ouch) or the point struck into the temple,throat, eyes, sub sternal notch or virtually anywhere else...
with the exception of the gouges, and traps, its main function seems to be a batton. the reason i didnt like it as a weapon is the way the prongs seemed to be used. and the fact that thier mainly used in pairs.

because the traps are so widely spaced, their not suited to close quarters fighting where the prongs would be put into position by sliding down the shaft to the target. it also means that you cant employ the traps for wrist locks, im the same way as the jutte.

ive also noticed a trend to not grasp the "tip section" of the "blade" which takes out more than a few locks, throws, chokes, strangles, and submissions.

also,its base is in karate, it lacks some of the more combative techniques that are found with the jutte (i use the jutte as an example, as its the closest counterpart.) the problem with a base in karate is that karate is (by, and large) a strinking art, which doesnt incorperate much grappling, locking, throwing, or pressure/vital point attacks.

the jutte has its base in ju-jutsu, iaido, and ken-jutsu.

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Post by darksun_uk » Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:29 pm

Wraith wrote:
add the strike at the end or imagine a retreat blocks an incoming fist or foot (there fist/foot hits steel) and your some way to getting the effective use of these weapons.

not to mention the prongs as gouges and trapps and the butt as an aid to punches and the blade struck across the forearm or shin (ouch) or the point struck into the temple,throat, eyes, sub sternal notch or virtually anywhere else...
with the exception of the gouges, and traps, its main function seems to be a batton. the reason i didnt like it as a weapon is the way the prongs seemed to be used. and the fact that thier mainly used in pairs.

because the traps are so widely spaced, their not suited to close quarters fighting where the prongs would be put into position by sliding down the shaft to the target. it also means that you cant employ the traps for wrist locks, im the same way as the jutte.

ive also noticed a trend to not grasp the "tip section" of the "blade" which takes out more than a few locks, throws, chokes, strangles, and submissions.

also,its base is in karate, it lacks some of the more combative techniques that are found with the jutte (i use the jutte as an example, as its the closest counterpart.) the problem with a base in karate is that karate is (by, and large) a strinking art, which doesnt incorperate much grappling, locking, throwing, or pressure/vital point attacks.

the jutte has its base in ju-jutsu, iaido, and ken-jutsu.
interesting points, i will make an effort to research some of the finer points that you mention, i dont suppose you would have a picture of one of the jutte that you use maybe with something else in the picture to give an idea of scale so i can see exactly what your using currently.
Wraith wrote: which doesnt incorperate much grappling, locking, throwing, or pressure/vital point attacks.
i dont suppose you would have a copy of bruce tegners book on pressure points as i use that (as well as my copy of grays) as my main source of target research, as i wanted to incorporate this overview into my practice as much as possible. i would value your opinion on this book as well as any others you might have found usefull (if any).

kind regards

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Post by michael_collins_2000_ie » Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:46 am

Banshee sai would be good, but youd still need a pair of them and the handle would still need to come to your elbow, ds make me a pair and il have your babies.

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Post by OneThing » Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:05 am

Image

here is a quick pic of the banshee all naked and such to see if its feasable since you've had so many requests

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Post by darksun_uk » Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:52 pm

OneThing wrote:
here is a quick pic of the banshee all naked and such to see if its feasable since you've had so many requests
thanks for that, as a design idea i have given it some thought.


Image
this pic is of the sai guard on on the banshee with a shorter tang design (to fit in with the design criteria of the sai swords i am working on)

there is the small issue of a blade collar being needed but its not absolutley required to do the job.

the black area in the picture represents a leather wrapped solid steel hilt design like the ones on my current sai swords.


this pic is of a varient design with the sai guard positioned behind a section of leather wrapped hilt to the same spec as the one behind the guard.
Image

i look forward to opinions on the concept...

while im posting this i may as well just post a couple of pics from the workshop

the solid nature of the tang after 2 steel bars have been super epoxied on either side of the exsisting full length tang, this is prior to the oval steel pipe being fitted snugly over it and then epoxied and pegged.
Image

a shot of the tang of a sai sword showing the small amount of copper that has been hammered round the blade (into the guard) to ensure a solid fit.
please note that the small amount of surface rust in the pic is not indicative of how the guard will look when the sword is finished 8) as they will be sanded a little then given a coat of black hammerite over the whole guard area and seppa area to provide a seal against corrosion and give a smooth feel to the guard to aid in flipping and gripping it more comfortably.

Image

ok thats it for now


kind regards

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Post by Gorilla Warfairy » Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:01 am

I would go with the second banshee variant, but with the guard slightly closer to the start of the blade. I would have it so that the tips of the guard are roughly level with the start of the blade as there is little point in a sharpened edge inside the guard where it cannot be utilised IMO. (H)

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Post by darksun_uk » Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:19 am

Gorilla Warfairy wrote:I would go with the second banshee variant, but with the guard slightly closer to the start of the blade. I would have it so that the tips of the guard are roughly level with the start of the blade as there is little point in a sharpened edge inside the guard where it cannot be utilised IMO. (H)
thats fair enough, however i might point out that with the current design the only part of the users hand that could be forward of the guard would be the index finger wrapped around and resting on the blade collar this grip is used to gain a little more control of the weapon during the execution of a few varient techniques....the reason for the blade being sharp all the way down to the collar is to allow cuts to be executed on any object trapped between the prongs and the blade 8) i leave you to imagine the scenarios involved....


kind regards

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Post by Gorilla Warfairy » Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:10 am

darksun_uk wrote:
Gorilla Warfairy wrote:I would go with the second banshee variant, but with the guard slightly closer to the start of the blade. I would have it so that the tips of the guard are roughly level with the start of the blade as there is little point in a sharpened edge inside the guard where it cannot be utilised IMO. (H)
thats fair enough, however i might point out that with the current design the only part of the users hand that could be forward of the guard would be the index finger wrapped around and resting on the blade collar this grip is used to gain a little more control of the weapon during the execution of a few varient techniques....the reason for the blade being sharp all the way down to the collar is to allow cuts to be executed on any object trapped between the prongs and the blade 8) i leave you to imagine the scenarios involved....


kind regards
see, now i already knew that and part of my original liking of the banshee based sai was in the possible use of the forward part of the handle (due to the curved shape at that point, i always envisioned the guard going through the top pin on the blades uk pic) for better controlled rotation etc on the index finger...

which leads me to wonder what i was thinking when i submitted my earlier post :S

I can only guess your mock picture tricked me into thinking that the forward handle should be larger for some reason 8)

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Post by Killua » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:20 pm

Darksun, I am regularly impressed with your work, it's fantastic.

So, you mentioned the sale of these Sai hybrids on here, any advance idea on the price range?

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Post by darksun_uk » Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:14 pm

Killua wrote:Darksun, I am regularly impressed with your work, it's fantastic.
thankyou for your kind words.
Killua wrote: So, you mentioned the sale of these Sai hybrids on here, any advance idea on the price range?
at this stage i have only an approximate idea, the basic sai sword with the ninjato style blade will be a bit cheaper than the other versions as its a bit less time consuming to make.

the standard version with a basic storage scabbard (which will also be useable as a jo staff) would be around the £170 mark at retail though this price is at present a rough estimate....

a brief recap of what you will be getting for your money

The Blade is ninjato style made from high carbon steel (5160) it has been differentially heat treated but the hamon is not visible as the extra work has not been done to reveal it (polishing and etching etc) as this is a budget blade, it is sharp but not knife sharp extra sharpening would mean an increase in cost

Each blade has had a solid brass blade collar affixed to it.

The guards are made from a solid piece of wrought iron that has been hammer forged to shape by an expert blacksmith to my exact specifications and is a work of art in its own right it its cold peened around the sword blade and as such it is is solidly and immovably fixed in place.

The tsuka (hilt) is oval steel pipe and the full tang of the sword blade is fixed within it with super strong metal replacement epoxy (industrial grade) and steel rods the hilt area is also steel pegged to make an absolutely solid and immovable bond between the blade tang and guard a bond as strong if not stronger than the method used on the paul chen PK.
The hilt is then wrapped with fine quality leather and the end is sealed with a Damascus steel cap.

The scabbard is oval steel pipe (same as hilt) which has a fiber glass core that the blade fits snugly into, the end of the scabbard is weighted and sealed with epoxy and a Damascus steel cap, then it is wrapped in fine quality leather.

These swords have been designed and constructed by myself to exact and rigorous standards all the components have been sourced to fit into an overall design and no compromise has been made in my efforts to find the right parts to make this project fit within my original design ideas.

I will make each one as if I was making it for my own use and as such they are perfectly balanced (at the tips of the guard prongs) for use as sai and are designed to be used by people who are skilled in the use of sai who want to practice and expand there skills with this unique and unusual weapon they can of course be used simply as short swords and also appreciated as collectable objects in there own right (as can any sword)


please remember that my time spent making these swords is being billed at a fair rate for the skill and risks involved, also remember that i am only ever likely to produce a few hundred of these in my lifetime at most (though thats in the lap of the gods) and as such should you decide to purchase one you would be buying a truly limited edition piece 8)


kind regards

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